Eddie Hellebuyck "'Yeah,' he says, 'I did it.'"

Maybe ,but look at out record holder on 10,000m Jon Brown he's was a long way from being the most talented distance runner in the uk. I watched one of my teamates edge him in a 3:47.1 1500m race. The guy was not even a 1500m runner but a 5km type working and only training once a day

Every sub 13 and sub 27 guy has trained at altitude. You might not beat their records but you can close the gap - just as the Americans have shown over the last couple of years

"The africans will always be on top, because of genetics, and lifestyle, and that is not likely to change."

Genetics, not lifestyle. They have more individuals with the genetic that happen to be useful for distance running (and markedly not useful for, say, bodybuilding). I am unsure what "lifestyle" we are talking about. You mean the allegedly enobling effects of poverty? Where are our Bangladeshi or Afghani distance runners? Or our Ivory Coast distance runners, or Haitian distance runners, for that matter?

Jon Brown was your classic marathon, road distance running specialist - and his 10,000 time (27.18) is remarkable because it is far better than his 5000 best (13.19?) which is equivalent to 27.38. But Jon scored max points on running economy and getting ready for big races. He is highly intelligent in the way he prepared for races.

He even showed great form in Euro type cross country races, where he could exploit his rhythm and form. You are right that altitude helped him, and he continued right up to Athens, when using Whistler, the ski place, in British Columbia, as a base.

Altitude helps, but I think there are Kenyans and Ethiopians who could still run well without altitude. It certainly gives them a psychological advantage as well, and that factor is not negligible.

How about Tadesse from Eritrea? Their capital is located at a modest altitude (just above 1000m) and yet he is at the very top. And he does most of his training in Madrid situated around 800m above sea level.

Altitude really only 'kicks in' at 1600m and higher, so, technically, Tadesse is not altitude trained, which is interesting. Altitude helps, but it is not the only factor for success.

Have things changed from 30 - 40 years ago? Both Ron Hill and Tim Johnstone thought that altitude was a double edged sword, and for Hill it turned out bad in his preparation for Munich (72) when he was all set to win, but had to settle for 6th, blaming altitude for his contra performance. Lismont (Belgium) the double Olympic marathon medallist, was another who did not use altitude much or at all in his major preparations. Lismont also showed good form in world cross, and even dipped under 28 for 10,000 track, without altitude in the 70s and early 80s. His longevity was extraordinary. There is also a theory that too much intense training at altitude is bad for health.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

ghost wrote:

What more does he have to do to make amends? One feels reasonably certain, that with his integrity, Eddie would pay back some of the winnings he earned, if it became clearly established when his doping advantage had benefits on the races he ran, but that will be difficult to do.

So, in order for Eddie to have integrity somebody else is going to have to prove that doping worked in his particular case? In every race? Wow, that's a bizarre standard, but I guess to be expected from you.

It's worth mentioning that Hill stayed six days longer in the Pyranees than the rest of the GB team. Don MacGregor was also there and certainly performed much better at Munich than his performances to that time would have predicted and thinks that Ron didn't give himself sufficient time to re-adapt to lower altitude. Johnston fared very well at Mexico City after spending a year living there in 1967-68 in order to acclimate.

On the other hand, if you can get Hill, and Thompson under 2:10 with no altitude training decades ago I don't see why you couldn't get someone at least that fast and probably a bit faster without altitude training today.

But we've gone a bit off topic here.

Eddie Hellebuyck "'Yeah,' he says, 'I did that shit. F*ck it.'"

Yes, there are other poor countries - Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan, etc, which could produce distance runners, but those countries have no distance running culture whatsoever. There is no interest or history of distance running, and so people do not take up the sport. Look at India - there are some fabulous places to train in Kashmir and Rajastan (at altitude) but those places have not produced any distance runners. Again - no culture for the sport of distance running in India. So culture, or more specifically - running culture is what counts.

Take the case of the remarkable success of Puerto Rican runners in the 70s and 80s. Puerto Rico is a tropical place, but there were countless good runners there at the time, and many of them became fixtures in the New York City area road races in those days Yet - with the hot humid climate prevailing for much of the year, you would not think the place an ideal breeding ground for distance runners....so again - the running culture prevailed and produced champions in that particular place.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

Some people claim that being impoverished helps motivation for distance running, but Japan, the country with incredible depth in distance running, is economically very close to the top, and their depth is not going down. The running culture in Japan is second to none. It is the only country where I have seen so many marathons and ekidens (road relays) televised from start to finish, with a huge fan base to boot.

Seko did not use altitude much and preferred (like many Japanese) to log most of his miles around a small park (The Imperial Palace) in the center of Tokyo, under the watchful eye of his coach (Nakamura). I think the circuit there is only around 1200m, and 30km runs would be done there. The Japanese coaches like to keep perfect control of their charges, and those small circuits fulfil that purpose, as the athletes are never far away from the eagle eyes of their coaches.

Back to Eddie - I think some people, fortunately, are starting to 'chill out' and are willing to give Eddie some credit in the way he is trying to turn his life around.

One also has to give credit to Eddie for his discipline in not posting here, which might, in his estimation, be counter productive.

Ghost in Saudi.www.kfupm.edu.sa

eddy is a deserving cuckhold wrote:

I'm starting to think ghost might be a major PED peddler. Perhaps he's losing his New Mexico-Tucson client base?

Sorry, but I know just about every runner personally in the Tucson area that's anybody. And NOT ONE of them is using PEDs.

What part is 'irrational' or hysterical?

Did he cheat?

Did he win prize money by cheating?

Did he lie about it?

Did he continue to lie about it when caught?

Has he refused to return prize money he won by cheating?

Seriously, do you even think about what you are writing before you post it?

If you'd actually read many of the previous posts, paying back the prize money he won when he cheated would be a good start.

"with his integrity"? Seriously?

I don't know why you are trying to blow smoke on this issue, it really is quite straight forward: you are not allowed to cheat. When you cheat, you are not entitled to the rewards.

Eddy cheated. He won prize money when he cheated. If he genuinely didn't believe that cheating would help him run better, then why on earth would he cheat?

Really, what is your connection to Eddy that you know him, his integrity, his business savvy and his personal financial situation? You guys hang out regularly? Go for runs? Chat on Skype?

Next time you are shooting the breeze with your buddy Eddy, why don't you point out to him that he really doesn't need those extra earnings and that maybe it would go a long way to making amends and getting his life back on track if he were to return the prize money he won when he cheated?

We are going round in circles. Yes - he apparently cheated. And he has 'paid' for his transgression the hard way, losing his job at the school and a multitude of business interests in New Mexico. He was basically run out of town like an outlaw, because his mistake was essentially victimless.

Yes, some people may have lost some money in the process, but the punishment he and his family has suffered is way more severe than any monetary penalty he could have been subjected to.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

Ghost, you are a moron, "practically victimless"

The only way for ERddie to salvage some respectis yo pay back what was not rightfully gained. But he values money and whores more than doing the right thing.

I can assure you Steve Brace was juiced for his 2:10 marathon. He was running 16:30 5K 10 weeks before his 2:10 (while stopping to tie she laces and stopping again for a crap and closing th3e 26th mile in sub 4:40) And retired a 8 months later PLEASE!!!

Hey we are finally getting somewhere! Mr. Ghost could you please explain this statement:

ghost wrote:

Yes - he apparently cheated.

Thank you in advance.

Interesting sory about Eddie. I believe in was 2009 that this occuured. Local 5k & 10k race that was in either Phoenix or Scottsdale. The race had a $50 bonus for breaking the master's record in either race. The 5k masters record was soft, something like 17:15. Eddie ran that and broke the record. $50 in his pocket. The 10k race was up next but the masters record was considerably faster. Eddie ran to maybe the 2-3 mile mark and dropped out. Why you ask? Just guessing here but if I remember right he wasn't on pace to take home the cash. This story tells you what Eddie is all about, money and his greed to acquire it at all costs. Long ride from Tuscon for that payday Eddie.

ghost wrote:

We are going round in circles. Yes - he apparently cheated. And he has 'paid' for his transgression the hard way, losing his job at the school and a multitude of business interests in New Mexico. He was basically run out of town like an outlaw, because his mistake was essentially victimless.

Yes, some people may have lost some money in the process, but the punishment he and his family has suffered is way more severe than any monetary penalty he could have been subjected to.

Ghost in Saudi,

http://www.kfupm.edu.sa

He took money that he should not have been eligible to receive. If he hadn't taken this money, it would have gone to other people who WERE eligible to receive it. This is stealing. It is not a victimless crime. Me jaywalking on an empty street is a victimless crime. Me stealing $30,000 from some guy who busted his ass training without the benefits of synthetic EPO injections is NOT a victimless crime.

You are an absolute moron if you think it would be "difficult for Eddy to know which races he had an advantage for". Are you actually retarded? I'm serious. I can't tell.

If you're not, it goes like this. Starting on the date that he first injected EPO into his body, he cheated. Any races within that time period were done as a fraud and a cheat. He should return ALL of this money to either the race directors or the competitors he stole it from. THAT would be making amends. Can you really not grasp this?

eddy is a deserving cuckhold wrote:

I'm starting to think ghost might be a major PED peddler. Perhaps he's losing his New Mexico-Tucson client base?

I think that people are giving "ghost" far too much credence as some sort of insider.

As far as I am aware, "ghost" is simply a former recreational runner from Great Britain who continues to follow the sport from his current domicile. He seems to enjoy pretending that he knows various international-caliber athletes and possesses inside information about the elite levels of sport around the world. In that sense, I suppose that he's not doing anything much different from what a lot of sports fans do, although I admit that I find him to be a particularly irritating specimen. I'm not sure why he's chosen the defense of drug cheats as his special topic for discussion on this site, but I have noticed that a lot of people on letsrun.com pretend to have inside information about the use of performance-enhancing drugs and other practices in elite athletics, as if such knowledge would make them big shots in the running world. If this were a rock site instead of a running site, I suppose that the same kinds of people would be intimating that they've spent the last thirty years snorting coke with Mick and the Stones.

ghost wrote:

Yes - he apparently cheated.

Are you saying you have reason to doubt his statements that he did cheat? How can this be since you are so intimately familiar with him and his savvy?

And he has 'paid' for his transgression the hard way, losing his job at the school and a multitude of business interests in New Mexico.

Is this really surprising though? Newsflash: there is more to punishment for misdeeds than the formal sentence. If you think that you can cheat (or break any other rules) and not have to face ancillary punishment beyond that formally stated, you are living in a dream world.

his mistake was essentially victimless.

Yes, some people may have lost some money

Are you completely oblivious to this blatant contradiction? Or do you really think readers are so gullible that they'll fall for your twisted logic?

Let us know when you've had your latest chat with your buddy Eddy and suggested to him he could make amends by returning the money he won by cheating. (I won't hold my breath.)

Recreational runner? Well, without talent I ran 1.50.49 for 20 miles (5.30 per mile) in 1978 Finchley '20' - and was invited the following year to don the Surrey vest in the Inter Counties 20 mile race, by Derek Crookes of Belgrave. I ran around 60 miles a week, and did reasonably well for someone the wrong size (6.2) for running with not very good biomechanics. I never did track sessions or formal sessions. I just enjoyed running 5-8 miles on Wimbledon Common, with weekly races as 'speedwork.'

I also gained a scholarship to Mansfield University, Pennsylvania, in 1980-82, where I ran the school indoor 3 mile record (14:42) at Bucknell in February 1981. That record, still stands in Mansfield. My coach in Mansfield was Ed Winrow, but being the maverick I concede I am, did most of my training on my own. I was never a 'group person.'

I was also a club champion in the South London Harriers 'Gibb Cup' in October 1978, covering the hilly 5 mile cross country course in 25.50, beating John Roberts, the multi surrey cross country champion on that day.....thank you, John, for that unique opportunity.

I am not pretending to be anything other than what I am. I worked hosting Kenyan runners for several years in the South of France when they came there for competitions, so there is knowledge about their lifestyles and diet and other things, and that is not counting my two visits to Kenya and Ethiopia. Have also worked with athletes in Morocco, visiting Ifrane and Casablanca, in 1996. I still correspond with some of those people, and many consider me 'le grand frere' (big brother). Not trying to blow my horn here.....but this needed rectification.

It is sad that although I concede what Eddie did was wrong - people appear to want more 'blood' and are outraged about what he did. He cheated, but he did not deliberately take money from people. The EPO use enabled him to run faster, and he was not the only one.

Why is Eddie so vilified, yet in other sports where doping is common, the ones who are caught are not subjected to that type of psychological aggression? It is sad for the guys who lost money, but once again, it is also sad that Eddie has been subjected to such venom. It is really disproportionate to what he did. Take any judge or unbiased legal guy and they will, probably agree with me.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

ghost you big dumbass, learn to spell my name right!