Silas Kiplagat-Mystery Man

moron

how many times do you have to be told ???

your analysis is complete nonsense

it's pathetic teenage level drivel

how about you do some proper analysis ???

- do some log analysis of the the speeds of top 800 - 10k guys in time frames ???

- do some chi-square analysis of the groups of years in question

- analyse 6 -10 guys in yearly lists to exclude outliers & giver better representation of the populus

see above moron & do some proper analysis

f***ing idiot

how dumb are you ???

1st/2nd guys ever at 800m are kenyans, then comes 6th & 7th

2nd & 4th fastest ever at 1500 are kenyans & if you add the mile & convert to 1500 times, it becomes 2nd & 3rd

your height argument is complete drivel - we saw rudisha & yego in same race - rudisha is huge & yego is a runt - latter can run 1'42.6

how does your nonsense height argument explain yego ???

no moron, there wasn't a "sudden explosion"

there was an appearance of all-time great athletes who re-wrote the lists - morceli/hicham/komen/geb/kip

remove them from the lists, how do the rest of the lists look ???

moron

can't your peabrain comprehend that the above mentioned guys were far better than guys from previous decade ???

are you such an idiot that you can't comprehend that each decade doesn't have the same level of talent than another ???

moron

can't you understand concept of "skew" generated by likes of hicham/morceli/bernie ???

moron

there is no identical trend

M has been steadily improving - there have been fluctuations in the track events not correlating

moron

there has been nothing "weird" in last 15y

it's just you can't do anything better than high-school analysis - did you even graduate from school ??

idiot

hicham runs 3'26/3'43 - bernie/noah run slightly slower

there is your "calibre" there

moron

check stagnantion of some of the records in 40's/'50s

i see using your 5th different handle hasn't made you any less dumber

find a link where she admits to epo use

she admitted to use of a piss-weak designers steroid

i see any semblance of analytical skill is still beyond you

he was likely doping in '06, but in absence of a +ve test/admission, it is pure conjecture what he was on - it may have been steroids or epo or blood transfusions

do some research idiot

he has had niggling injuries for years now, never had the same basic speed as '05/'06

he has tried to compensate for this speed loss with much more over-distance work, evidenced by fact he ran 13'06i this year & miscounted the laps & finished his sprint 200m early & was spent & had to restart running again when otherwise he wouda run maybe 13'00/13'02i - which with a 101/102 outdoor conversion ->~ 12'52/12'54

even this huge improvement in endurance has not compensated enough for loss of 400 speed to drag him back to under 3'30[/quote]

Kenyans of today run too many races and overtrain. 10-15 years ago, the competition was fair. People race smart bc there was alot of money and the pressure was not huge like today. If you follow the 3 1500m, kiprop, keitany and choge last year, you will see how they picked early and instead of taking it easy and racing less, they race more and more and they burned out before the season ended. This practice of racing to may races is common with kenyans. Kenyans understand the consequences of overracing but bc money is the motivation, they risk it all just to get money. People like keitany who run good last year are not a factor this season bc the body would not take the beating in practice and in racing. When you look at somebody like Paul Tergat and Bernard Lagat they do not race too many races. They train smart and race good quality meets. Kipchoge Keino was right when he said that Kenyans of today are chasing money rather than chasing time and glory for them and their country. When you look at Half and Full Marathons, runners used to wait until their track careers drop before they start switching. Today, runners ran both track and marathon at the same time. You will see 20 year olds running marathon which was not the case 10 years ago.

Kenyans are chasing money and when you chase money time is not that important so long as you are winning. I am a runner from Kalenjin and i have seen runners giving up not training bc they got enough money to start a business. I do not need to remind you that competition is tough in Kenya, you will find young man who are hungry to win and they cannot wait to be on top. If you are a good runner made alot of money and is not motivated to be the best then your days in racing is limited bc you got somebody like silas kiplagat who is been training with the best ripe and ready. People shoukd not be suprise when they see someone like silas run a good time, when you train in kenya, training itself is like a race. Silas is one side of the story, the othet side is hundreds who have been training 10-15 years burned out in training and cannot among to anything in racing. Kenyans EPO is training. If you are really interested go to kenya and watch these guys train. Train with them and if you come out with your brains intact, you will tell everybody else about how Jesus came down to take you home at the track but you urge him to let you run one more lap. people will say you are crazy and they are are rught.

When European runners with a pb of 13.20 in the 5000m run

2.08, you'd expect EA runners with a pb of 13.00 to run

2.05. The result in the marathon lagged a decade behind.

and i certainly don't buy the argument that the best 1500m runners (those who "should be" running sub 3.30 like a decade ago) are running the marathon today. The crazy track times of

the late 90s and early 2000 indicate EPO.

Since 2006 there have been blood profiling alongside Epo

test. Blood profiling gives extra information of athletes

blood. For example the amount of new red blood cells. After

blood profiling super fast times disapeared. Of course there are marathon records after that. That is because

the record was soft and still is compared to 12.37

3.26,0. Current marathon record is probably worth

sub 12.50 and 26.35.

'After blood profiling super fast times disapeared. Of course there are marathon records after that.'

You are exactly right. No fast times apart from the Marathon WR, oh and the 5,000m, the 10,000m, add the steeplechase WR's. Nearly forgot there was that 1:41 800m a couple of weeks ago!

As for looking up on some table to find out the marathon record is soft. Where should I begin to explain where this is wrong

Keep changing your name and spouting the same unsubstantiated rubbish

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'After blood profiling super fast times disapeared. Of course there are marathon records after that.'

You are exactly right. No fast times apart from the Marathon WR, oh and the 5,000m, the 10,000m, add the steeplechase WR's. Nearly forgot there was that 1:41 800m a couple of weeks ago!

As for looking up on some table to find out the marathon record is soft. Where should I begin to explain where this is wrong

Keep changing your name and spouting the same unsubstantiated rubbish

The records improved only marginally on track. After 2005, the short outburst again disappeared.

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Please, if you incidentally saw him, don't try to catch him and call our phone +005456871231221322.

Thank you

Joe Nut Kipkemboi, director of the State Mental Asylum in Nairobi, Kenya

Who said 800m record was done with epo? Okay, 3000m steeple WR is worth 7.25 -> c.12.47->long way to 12.37.

If Coe and Cruz could run 1.41,7 I don't have problem

to believe Kipketer and Rudisha could run 1.41 without doping. There has never been any big improvement at 800m, because 800m is much more anaerobic, so the aid epo gives at 800 is very limited, if any. I have never said you can't run 12,45-50 without epo. But altitude training you need for those times. What kind of coach are you ? You can't see the difference between sub 12.50 and 12.37.

And last,but not least. You are saying I am changing

my name. First I laughed and then went serious.

This UK man needs help. Go immediately to local shrink.

I am shore there are good specialists in your country.

Czech guy wrote:

The records improved only marginally on track. After 2005, the short outburst again disappeared.

2006 is after 2005

5000 m

112:48.09Kenenisa BekeleETH13 Jun 82160/541VDBruxelles25 Aug

212:48.66Isaac SongokKEN25 Apr 84170/542WKZürich18 Aug

312:51.98ARSaif Saeed ShaheenQAT15 Oct 82177/642GGalaRoma14 Jul

412:52.40Edwin SoiKEN3 Mar 86168/532GazSaint-Denis8 Jul

512:53.81NJRTariku BekeleETH21 Jan 87160/524GGalaRoma14 Jul

612:54.19WYRAbreham CherkosETH23 Sep 89160/525GGalaRoma14 Jul

712:54.46Moses MosopKEN17 Jul 85165/543GazSaint-Denis8 Jul

812:54.94Eliud KipchogeKEN5 Nov 84167/526GGalaRoma14 Jul

912:55.52Hicham BellaniMAR15 Sep 79180/647GGalaRoma14 Jul

1012:56.41Augustine ChogeKEN21 Jan 87162/531CWGMelbourne20 Mar

1112:57.11Boniface KipropUGA12 Oct 85167/531DNGStockholm25 Jul

1212:57.89Abderrahim GoumriMAR21 May 76168/592DNGStockholm25 Jul

1312:58.03Joseph EbuyaKEN20 Jun 87176/606GazSaint-Denis8 Jul

1412:58.19Craig MottramAUS18 Jun 80188/722CWGMelbourne20 Mar

1512:58.29Benjamin LimoKEN23 Aug 74178/658GGalaRoma14 Jul

1612:58.58Mike KigenKEN15 Jan 86170/543BislettOslo2 Jun

1712:59.08Jonas CheruiyotKEN11 Jan 84172/623DNGStockholm25 Jul

1812:59.22Bernard LagatUSA12 Dec 74175/611Norw UnionLondon28 Jul

1912:59.27NRZersenay TadeseERI8 Feb 82160/569GGalaRoma14 Jul

2013:00.77Micah KogoKEN3 Jun 86170/604DNGStockholm25 Jul

As is 2009

112:52.32 Kenenisa BekeleETH13 Jun 82160/541WKZürich28 Aug

212:55.03Edwin SoiKEN3 Mar 86168/532WKZürich28 Aug

312:55.66Imane MergaETH15 Oct 88172/552VDBruxelles4 Sep

412:55.98Vincent ChepkokKEN5 Jul 88174/603VDBruxelles4 Sep

512:56.27Dathan RitzenheinUSA30 Dec 82170/523WKZürich28 Aug

612:56.46Eliud KipchogeKEN5 Nov 84167/521NotturnaMilano25 Jun

712:56.53Ali AbdoshETH28 Aug 87164/544VDBruxelles4 Sep

812:57.43Josphat BettKEN12 Jun 90173/605VDBruxelles4 Sep

912:57.62Mark KiptooKEN21 Jun 76175/642GGalaRoma10 Jul

1012:58.16Joseph EbuyaKEN20 Jun 87176/606VDBruxelles4 Sep

1112:58.24Leonard Patrick KomonKEN10 Jan 88175/523GGalaRoma10 Jul

1212:58.56Matt TegenkampUSA19 Jan 82185/667VDBruxelles4 Sep

1312:58.70Lucas RotichKEN16 Apr 90171/574GGalaRoma10 Jul

1412:59.22Bekana DabaETH29 Jul 88170/555GGalaRoma10 Jul

1512:59.27Moses KipsiroUGA2 Sep 86174/595WKZürich28 Aug

1613:00.79Augustine ChogeKEN21 Jan 87162/532FBKGHengelo1 Jun

1713:01.08Abraham ChebiiKEN23 Dec 79172/632ISTAFBerlin14 Jun

1813:01.30Micah KogoKEN3 Jun 86170/603ISTAFBerlin14 Jun

1913:02.40Mathew KisorioKEN16 May 89178/627GGalaRoma10 Jul

2013:03.06Bernard LagatUSA12 Dec 74175/612ReebokNew York NY30 May

'I have never said you can't run 12,45-50 without epo.'

So are you 'shore' a more talented athlete could not run 12:37 without EPO. Both Geb and Geb had superior basic speed to their competitors

Your argument on times slowing after EPO has been shot to pieces by the number of world records after the tests despite the Golden League focus away from WR's to winning and the move to the marathon which coach Renato discussed. As for the 800m being anaerobic -well still if you improve your aerobic capacity you will have longer until switching to less efficient anaerobic energy systems. Furthermore, as you pointed out, EPO should work better the more aerobic the event

Well look at this list of marathon times all well after the EPO test:

2:03:59 Haile Gebrselassie

ETH 18/04/1973 1 Berlin 28/09/2008

2:04:26 Haile Gebrselassie

1 Berlin 30/09/2007

2:04:27 Duncan Kibet Kirong

KEN 25/04/1978 1 Rotterdam 05/04/2009

2:04:27 James Kipsang Kwambai

KEN 28/02/1983 2 Rotterdam 05/04/2009

2:04:48 Patrick Makau Musyoki

KEN 02/03/1985 1 Rotterdam 11/04/2010

2:04:53 Haile Gebrselassie

1 Dubai 18/01/2008

2:04:55 Paul Tergat

KEN 17/06/1969 1 Berlin 28/09/2003

2:04:55 Geoffrey Kiprono Mutai

KEN 07/10/1981 2 Rotterdam 11/04/2010

2:04:56 Sammy Korir

KEN 12/12/1971 2 Berlin 28/09/2003

2:05:04 Abel Kirui

KEN 04/06/1982 3 Rotterdam 05/04/2009

2:05:10 Samuel Kamau Wanjiru

KEN 10/11/1986 1 London 26/04/2009

2:05:13 Vincent Kipruto

KEN 13/09/1987 3 Rotterdam 11/04/2010

2:05:15 Martin Lel

KEN 29/10/1978 1 London 13/04/2008

2:05:18 Tsegay Kebede

ETH 15/01/1987 1 Fukuoka 06/12/2009

2:05:19 Tsegay Kebede

1 London 25/04/2010

2:05:20 Tsegay Kebede

2 London 26/04/2009

2:05:23 Feyisa Lilesa

ETH 01/02/1990 4 Rotterdam 11/04/2010

2:05:24 Samuel Kamau Wanjiru

2 London 13/04/2008

2:05:27 Jaouad Gharib

MAR 22/05/1972 3 London 26/04/2009

2:05:29 Haile Gebrselassie

1 Dubai 16/01/2009

2:05:30 Abderrahim Goumri

MAR 21/05/1976 3 London 13/04/2008

2:05:36 James Kipsang Kwambai

2 Berlin 28/09/2008

2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi

USA 22/12/1971 1 London 14/04/2002

2:05:41 Samuel Kamau Wanjiru

1 Chicago, IL 11/10/2009

=====================================================

Per-test!

2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi

1 Chicago, IL 24/10/1999

You never hear elite European or American athletes with these wild accusations. I've trained with Ethiopians and Renato Canova coaches Kenyans but you think you know more than us based on some unsubstantiated and unproven theory

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'After blood profiling super fast times disapeared. Of course there are marathon records after that.'

You are exactly right. No fast times apart from the Marathon WR, oh and the 5,000m, the 10,000m, add the steeplechase WR's. Nearly forgot there was that 1:41 800m a couple of weeks ago!

As for looking up on some table to find out the marathon record is soft. Where should I begin to explain where this is wrong

Keep changing your name and spouting the same unsubstantiated rubbish

To be fair to Card Counter, I think he was addressing the comments of another who suggested that times seem to have slowed up for some after 2006. He was suggesting that this may be due to "blood profiling" (which I've never heard of) which he said came into use after 2006.

You seem to counter this by mentioning the WRs at 5k, 10k and 3000SC, but of course these were all set before 2007 (when blood profiling was allegedly introduced). Yes, those WRs were set after the EPO test at end of 2000, but before the end of 2006. As we know there were people taking EPO during those 6 years between, and it's doubtful when they were caught, it was their first time taking it (e.g Ramzi).

I have no idea how they test on the Marathon circuit, and I have no reason to believe that Rudisha is anything but a supreme talent. He's running times comparable with those from 30 years ago. The benefit from EPO would be limited at 800m. It's in the 1500m and longer where the improvements had been staggering since the mid 90's.

Ah Deano finally someone knowledgeable who can have an intelligent discussion:

It's in the 1500m and longer where the improvements had been staggering since the mid 90's.

But think about this 13:00 run without a pacemaker nearly 30 years ago by an athlete not born or extensively at altitude. 30 years on is 23 seconds impossible without drugs. Or even the 1500m with 3.5 seconds improvement

I would look more at the pattern of elite proven drug cheats and the altitude they were born at:

Brahim Boulami Safi Sea Level

Rashid Ramzi Safi Sea Level

Mohammed Mourhit Khouribga 786m (2500ft)not high enough!

Ali Saïdi-Sief Constantine 501m

Adil Kaouch Can't find

I could go on!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

Note these are elite athletes. OF course you can find a few from East Africa but nowhere near their standard

I'm not aggressive like Ventolin, so I don't say you are an idiot or a moron. I give only the Kenyan lists of the top athletes in 800 and 1500m, and after are people on this website that can decide what have to think about your analysis (average of 1,71 for Kenyans, not talented for short distances).

800m

Time Name Position all time (World) H/W

1'41"11 Wilson Kipketer 1 178 / 62

1'41"51 David Rudisha 2 188 / 71

1'42"28 Sammy Koskei 6 183 / 67

1'42"34 Wilfred Bungei 7 178 / 64

1'42"62 Patrick Ndururi 12 182 / 73

1'42"67 Alfred Kirwa Yego 13 175 / 56

1'42"65 Japhet Kimutai 15 173 / 55

1'42"79 Fred Onyancha 16 170 / 64

1'42"79 Gregory Konchellah (Kamal) 16 184 / 68

1'42"91 William Yampoy 22 175 / 59

1'42"98 Patrick Konchellah 24 181 / 68

1'43"03 Kennedy Kimwetich 25 183 / 73

1'43"06 Billy Konchellah 26 188 / 75

1'43"16 Paul Ereng 31 185 / 68

1'43"17 Asbel Kiprop 32 186 / 60

1'43"17 Benson Koech 32 176 / 65

Percentage of performers in top 33 in the World (all - time) : 16 / 33 = 48,48 %

Average H/W : 180.3 / 65.5

N.B. : I put in the list also Wilson Kipketer (Denmark) and Gregory Konchellah (Yusuf Kamel) (Bahrein) because originally Kenyan.

1500m

3'26"34 Bernard Lagat 2 175 / 61

3'28"12 Noah Ngeny 4 182 / 68

3'29"02 Daniel Kipchirchir Komen 7 175 / 60

3'29"27 Silas Kiplagat 10 175 / 56

3'29"29 William Chirchir 11 172 / 55

3'29"46 Daniel Komen 13 177 / 57

3'29"47 Augustine Choge 14 166 / 53

3'29"91 Laban Rotich 20 163 / 45

3'30"04 Timothy Kiptanui 21 175 / 58

3'30"18 John Kibowen 23 176 / 74

3'30"20 Haron Keitany 24 183 / 68

3'30"24 Cornelius Chirchir 25 184 / 62

3'30"46 Alex Kipchirchir 27 188 / 65

3'30"58 William Tanui 31 183 / 70

3'30"67 Benjamin Kipkurui 32 175 / 57

3'30"72 Paul Korir 33 180 / 64

3'30"99 Robert Rono 40 180 / 64

The Olympic Champion Asbel Kiprop is not in top 17 Kenyans all-time.

Percentage of Kenyans in top performers under 3'31"00 :

17 / 40 = 42,5 %

Average H / W : 177 / 61

Analysing (really...) the above lists, we can see that the best Kenyan specialists of 1500m are the smallest (till the exception of Laban Rotich, 45 kg but an incredibile finish). This means that there are two different attitudes for running fast the event :

a) AEROBIC ATTITUDE, like the athletes small and slim, using a very high AEROBIC POWER combined with good nervous reactivity (producing frequency in their technical action), the same attitude of SILAS KIPLAGAT (all these athletes had the possibility to move to longer distances with good success, also if many of them never did it)

b) ANAEROBIC ATTITUDE, combined with MUSCULAR STRENGTH, like the athletes tall and more heavy. Of course, there is some specialist tall and slim, that probably made some mistake in his training (Cornelius Chirchir and also Asbel Kiprop now), not trying to increase their Aerobic Power (specifically their best attitude, for example don't forget Asbel won in 2007 the WICh of Cross, 8 km) but looking too much for speed.

In any case, for being a people not talented for those events, the percentage inside the best in the World, all time, is not bad......

Bekele didn't run a great time in the 2008 Olympics 5K, by time-trial standards, but his effort was perhaps the greatest of all time. I believe his last 1600 was 3:56. Clearly, the man could have run 12:30's or low 12:40 had he attempted it. This was all after that profiling business. I don't know how you can account for that being a dominant factor with that race being such a blemish.

I particularly liked the response from the Kenyan who posted-Training is the EPO. Notwithstanding all that is written, I agree that we in North America still struggle to appreciate how much harder these guys train. But Ritz, Solinsky and Rupp are doing a pretty good imitation, and look at their recent results.

another canuck wrote:

I particularly liked the response from the Kenyan who posted-Training is the EPO. Notwithstanding all that is written, I agree that we in North America still struggle to appreciate how much harder these guys train. But Ritz, Solinsky and Rupp are doing a pretty good imitation, and look at their recent results.

My experiences with Kenyans are mixed, in some ways they can be very tough, but in others very weak. They tend to give up easily when things are not going well such as bad weather or just a day when not everything is clicking in a race.

It's hard for me to believe that in Kenya they are all tough as nails all day long. It's hard for me to believe that they are really tougher than guys like Rupp or Solinsky. Super damn talented and a lot of 'em, sure. Toughest guys running, not convinced.

'and a lot of 'em, sure'

You have hit the nail on the head. For every American training full time there are 10 Kenyans

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'and a lot of 'em, sure'

You have hit the nail on the head. For every American training full time there are 10 Kenyans

Exactly, it's more of a numbers game than a tough training thing.

If you have ten times as many, and all of those ten were born with genetic and environmental advantages (by environment I mean geography/altitude affecting physiological development) then you are going to have some damned good runners emerge even if they are actually training just as hard or even a little less hard than the top Americans.

Who works harder to bench press 250, the guy with short, muscular arms or the guy with the long slender arms? They both may be able to bench 250, but the second guy will have to work a lot harder to get there. And if the first guy works just as hard he'll bench 270, and if wants to do roids he'll run 12:39....errrr....bench 300. Joking, I think. ;-)