im bored wrote:
Note that blooding doping wasn't banned(illegal) by IOC until 1986. As it wasn't illegal I'm sure many runners, including a bunch of American runners who made great marathon times, had tried blood doping. E.g. take a look at the sub 2:12 American finishers in 1983 NYC (same for Boston), all but gone in a year or 2.
I see a bunch of guys in their late 20s-early 30s who wouldn't be expected to stay at the same level.
Cheating is Okay! wrote:
There are some fallacies in your logic, you nimwit.
First, it does violate the spirit of the Olympic ethic.
Second, under your (ill) logical, then the Balco Labs drugs that were previously not illegal, because they were designer, and unknown, and not detectable...were also then "fair."
Combining all these reports, the facts seem to clearly point to a concerted and regular effort by the Finnish contigent to gain an unfair advantage over others.
The fact that evidently several of those individuals have now admitted the truth -- of course with out telling who else was doing it -- points to a pattern.
I believe VIREN WAS A CHEATER, and his and other Finn athletes involved in blood doping were outside of the Olympic Ideal.
What makes Viren even worse, is that he was a former policeman.
It is easy to say "it wasn't illegal then," but it still violated the spirit of FAIR COMPETITION which the entire Athletics world is trying to accomplish and insure today.
Viren cheated and he knows it, and I think he uses some cold Nordic logic, like you, that it wasn't illegal, we were only looking for a way to improve performance "I know I did nothing wrong" etc.
It is sick. And no wonder he lay so low between Olympics, and performed spottily.
He was saving the blood boost for when it mattered.
I bet when he got up off the track after falling, part of his calm confidence was knowing he had the edge of extra blood power!
The Finns cheated, just like all the weight events guys cheated before steroids were banned.
Well... as every sportsman/athlete, who´s training SERIOUSLY has a training schedule to follow "by the book", so did Viren too. If you are following it "by the book", and get in better shape, better condition, better results, win gold, etc and you get to awareness of that it was the obeying of your training schedule that made all of it it happen/materialize, then you´re good to say: "I know did everything right (and here is the result)". It has the same meaning when you say: "I know I did nothing wrong". It also includes the gotten awareness how the being faithful to your training schedule was into achieving all that you did. ... but if you neglect your training schedule, for being lazy, injured, drinking problem, "who cares"-attitude, etc... and lose your sports/races, then you´re no good saying: "I know I did nothing wrong", because you´re already lying to yourself and denying the facts even from yourself that you did NOT obey your training schedule, you´re not eligible to say: "I did everything right (and yet I lost". You´re just good for NOTHING.
opinion wrote:
HRE wrote:
I don't. "All" of Viren's teammtes in this case would have been Maaninka who was on the Finnish team in 1980. Vaatanien, Vassala, Paavarinta, his teammates in Munich have not been shown to have done anything illegal. Kuha was pretty much done by Munich. I don't think he was even there. Vanio was caught in 1984. So the argument really comes down to "Maanainka did so Viren must have." Just doesn't do it for me.
If there is a string of dirty athletes coming out of Finland doesnt that make it more likely that there is a culture of blood doping in Finland. I mean if there are dirty Finnish runners before and during and after Viren doesnt that make it more likely that he was doing the same thing.
...and vice versa... if there´s a one dirty athlete coming/found out in ANY country, doesnt that make it more likely that there is a culture of dirty athletes in the whole country in question.
I vote for thorough investigation a Forever Ban from the Olympics (nowadays of all sports) for all those countries with even a one dirty athlete coming/found out.
Barabbarab wrote:
Cheating is Okay! wrote:
There are some fallacies in your logic, you nimwit.
First, it does violate the spirit of the Olympic ethic.
Second, under your (ill) logical, then the Balco Labs drugs that were previously not illegal, because they were designer, and unknown, and not detectable...were also then "fair."
Combining all these reports, the facts seem to clearly point to a concerted and regular effort by the Finnish contigent to gain an unfair advantage over others.
The fact that evidently several of those individuals have now admitted the truth -- of course with out telling who else was doing it -- points to a pattern.
I believe VIREN WAS A CHEATER, and his and other Finn athletes involved in blood doping were outside of the Olympic Ideal.
What makes Viren even worse, is that he was a former policeman.
It is easy to say "it wasn't illegal then," but it still violated the spirit of FAIR COMPETITION which the entire Athletics world is trying to accomplish and insure today.
Viren cheated and he knows it, and I think he uses some cold Nordic logic, like you, that it wasn't illegal, we were only looking for a way to improve performance "I know I did nothing wrong" etc.
It is sick. And no wonder he lay so low between Olympics, and performed spottily.
He was saving the blood boost for when it mattered.
I bet when he got up off the track after falling, part of his calm confidence was knowing he had the edge of extra blood power!
The Finns cheated, just like all the weight events guys cheated before steroids were banned.
Well... as every sportsman/athlete, who´s training SERIOUSLY has a training schedule to follow "by the book", so did Viren too. If you are following it "by the book", and get in better shape, better condition, better results, win gold, etc and you get to awareness of that it was the obeying of your training schedule that made all of it it happen/materialize, then you´re good to say: "I know did everything right (and here is the result)". It has the same meaning when you say: "I know I did nothing wrong". It also includes the gotten awareness how the being faithful to your training schedule was into achieving all that you did. ... but if you neglect your training schedule, for being lazy, injured, drinking problem, "who cares"-attitude, etc... and lose your sports/races, then you´re no good saying: "I know I did nothing wrong", because you´re already lying to yourself and denying the facts even from yourself that you did NOT obey your training schedule, you´re not eligible to say: "I did everything right (and yet I lost". You´re just good for NOTHING.
Read twice and still don't know what the hell you are saying.
Are you condemning Viren or defending him?
TheFlyingFinn wrote:
"funny how much medial details of blood doping Viren's coach has for a guy who's athlete didn't do it, seems to know the science of it WAY too intimately."
?????????????
Haven't seen any mentioning about Viren's coach in this list. Mr Peltokallio mentioned earlier is a well-known Finnish medical doctor. Viren's coach was Mr Rolf Haikkola, national level runner from the 50's.
I simply can't say anything about the possible blood doping in the 70's. However, I'm surprised about all these strong arguments only relying to Viren's performance in the years 73-75. In many ways, life and athletics was different that time. Runners did not even tried to reach their records in every race, pacemakers were generally not used, etc...
Somehow I got the assumption that this discussion is motivated by the Prefontaine's missed medal and Shorter's missed gold. Try to get it over, it's only sports...
By the way, I just wonder how it's possible that the small and poor Finland could have so good technology of blood transfusion that they beat the nation first on the moon?
Because "The Nation first On the Moon" was a hoax filmed at Hollywood and some suitable "Moonlike" terran (earth) surface & landscapes, by Stanley Kubrick. In the time period of Viren we did not have any good director for any Film Hoax, so Viren had to run and win his Olympic Golds for real and they were Filmed at Real Location by the then TV-companies owning the rights.
Make yourself CLEARER, man. wrote:
Barabbarab wrote:
Well... as every sportsman/athlete, who´s training SERIOUSLY has a training schedule to follow "by the book", so did Viren too. If you are following it "by the book", and get in better shape, better condition, better results, win gold, etc and you get to awareness of that it was the obeying of your training schedule that made all of it it happen/materialize, then you´re good to say: "I know did everything right (and here is the result)". It has the same meaning when you say: "I know I did nothing wrong". It also includes the gotten awareness how the being faithful to your training schedule was into achieving all that you did. ... but if you neglect your training schedule, for being lazy, injured, drinking problem, "who cares"-attitude, etc... and lose your sports/races, then you´re no good saying: "I know I did nothing wrong", because you´re already lying to yourself and denying the facts even from yourself that you did NOT obey your training schedule, you´re not eligible to say: "I did everything right (and yet I lost". You´re just good for NOTHING.
Read twice and still don't know what the hell you are saying.
Are you condemning Viren or defending him?
Defending.
"as every sportsman/athlete, who´s training SERIOUSLY has a training schedule to follow "by the book", so did Viren too. If you are following it "by the book", and get in better shape, better condition, better results, win gold, etc and you get to awareness of that it was the obeying of your training schedule that made all of it it happen/materialize, then you´re you´re good to say: "I know did everything right (and here is the result)". It has the same meaning when you say: "I know I did nothing wrong".
Defending: If you stay true to your training schedule and achieve your goals by that, you can conclude: "I did everything right". That´s synonymous to "I didn´t do anything wrong", and the results speak for it. On the other hand: If you don´t stay true to your training schedule and because of that you don´t achieve your goals by that, you can conclude: "I didn´t do everything right", that´s synonymous to: "I did something/many things wrong", and the results speak for it.
"Doing wrong" and "Doing right" can have different/opposite or each other supportive meanings, depending on in which tone (positive/negative) they are reflected, especially when taken separate/out from the common reference:
"I have not done anything wrong" = "I have done everything right"... "I have done nothing right" = "I have done everything wrong".
Certainly Defending.
... capiche?
Is there still something that you don´t understand?
Exquisite Corpse wrote:
Also, the announcer of the 1972 Olympic 10k mentions something about Viren seeing doctors for a blood treatment between qualifying and final rounds or something to that effect. Seems like it was fairly out in the open, because it was not illegal, but it has always puzzled me, since it certainly seems like the kind of thing one would want to keep secret.
That was David Coleman (announcer), and it was in 1980, not '72.