Fernandez 4:00.29!!!!!!

Why is there this big distinction if a HS record is set in HS only competition? If an American record is set in a race with non-Americans and the American doesn't finish first, we don't put an asterisk next to that record. Kennedy didn't win when he ran 12:58.

Ritzenhein is not even close to being a top 3 high school runner ever. You can't just arbitrarily put him there based on him beating Alan Webb in cross country. Cross country doesn't mean anything - really. I mean, it can help your case (a little) if needed, but it can't hurt. But it can't help THAT much.

Second, in terms of people arguing whether or not an 8:34 3200 is better than 8:36 2-mile. No, it isn't. Because it is essentially the same event and it converts to slower. However, that would be an argumental fallacy. The fact the German solo'd a 4:00.29 and an 8:34.23 is the entire performance to be viewed (also, 4:11 prelim.)

He is clearly better than Ritzenhein at 2-miles. That is not even debateable. The ONLY other person with the talent for this double was Alan Webb.

To Wrongo: Ritz has the competitive record but in cross country. Webb would have wiped the track with Ritz in a 2-mile. But that doesn't make him great.

What makes German great is that he did something that no other high schooler (save Webb) could even dream of doing. That distances you from the pack.

In a HS distance runner draft, I'm picking German over Ritzenhein. (That doesn't make him 3rd all time, just stating that Ritz isn't. You can't put Ritz over Virgin, Lindgren, Nelson, Chapa, Hulst, Kimball, Prefontaine)

minus: "But that doesn't make him great"

Here's what some people are saying about German's performance:

Scott Raczko: "I’m not as impressed with the 4-flat as I am the 8:34... That’s an amazing second half. It shows serious strength. More strength than anyone else we’ve ever seen at the high school level.”

Alan Webb: “Absolutely amazing... That double… it’s just crazy.”

Chris Solinsky: “I haven’t ever been impressed with a high school performance, but that was incredible... That was insane. I saw the 4:00 (1600) then we left for that border dual meet here in Portland and came back and saw the 8:34. … I mean 8:34 alone is very good but what, two hours after a 4:00? That is unheard of.”

Jeff Nelson: "... when he ran 4-flat (in the 1600 final on Saturday), I was like ‘holy moly.’ I thought for sure his legs were shredded for any chance at the double. Then he runs 8:34. Mind-boggling... I woke up this morning asking myself, 'Did that really happen last night?’ That double by him wasn’t human. That’s just, it’s just, I’m at a loss for words. Boy, to run a time like that – by himself! I’m just shell-shocked.”

Wrongo: Not that impressed.

Article link:

http://www.dyestatcal.com/?pg=dyestatcal2008Track-Road-To-State-State-Meet-German-Fernandez-double

uh, i said the performance was amazing. i said it was the best double of all time. i didn't say it makes him one of the best HS runners ever. you'll notice that none of those guys did either.

i don't get what pisses people off so much about that. like, i disagree with the guy that said that ritz isn't top-3 HS runner ever, but he stated his case, i see where our criteria for greatness differs, and i'm not gonna jump all over him for it.

people getting all worked up over a stranger's opinion of another stranger's accomplishments is simply sad. chill out, guys.

It's bizarre to see this thread so full of arguments. It should be more celebratory! I was disappointed when Chris Derrick was out with mono, and now here's yet another new talent. This season has seen at least four preps running under 8:50 (anyone have the current top 10 list?), talk about a goldmine of talent for the future of U.S. distance running!

I'm surprised no one's discussing the possibility of Fernandez making an attempt on the 5000m record this summer.

Apparently, my offending line was, "Since high school Sage has not achieved what might have been hoped for him." Of course, I was speaking of his running "career," not his academic and professional. And I intentionally put the line in the passive voice, leaving open who such people might be. However, I think if you asked Sage, he'd tell you it is not what he hoped for. I remember reading an interview with him in a local running periodical (I live in Illinois) shortly after he graduated York, and he spoke of making the Olympics and eventually running under 13:00 for 5,000. These were not foolish dreams. Indeed, simply being invited to run the Prefontaine Classic in the mile as a high school student and running 4:00.29 suggests great potential. My point was that a great world class runner a great high school runner does not of necessity make. This was by no means meant to diminish Sage's wonderful accomplishments.

afdfaeasf wrote:

Sage did win a ncaa title at 1500. He had a pretty good career in xc too. He was 6th man on stanfords team at Northern Iowa and he finished 13th. He had a damn good college career. He also has a degree from Stanford which is good anywhere.

random post wrote: "In a HS distance runner draft, I'm picking German over Ritzenhein. (That doesn't make him 3rd all time, just stating that Ritz isn't. You can't put Ritz over Virgin, Lindgren, Nelson, Chapa, Hulst, Kimball, Prefontaine)"

In high school Ritz ran 13:44.7 and came in third in the Jr. World XC. Yet not better than any of these guys?????

pre841 wrote:

hknkl wrote:

wow

Just gave a call to the Applebees in Riverbank (209)863-9780 to congratulate him, and he said he's receiving quite a bit of notice tonight at the restaurant.

Yeah. I went there last night to have dinner and drop off a congrats card.

His coach was supposed to meet me there for dinner, but no showed, which pissed me off since he was the one that suggested the dinner (not bruce edwards, but johnny). I invited him and German to our team's camp this summer in Soda Springs. We were going to discuss the details.

German will only run the 2 at NON then shut it down for the season. That is straight from the horses mouth.

First of all, some celebration is in order - WOW. What an impressive double for Fernandez. Certainly this double does put him in the top 10 distance runners of all time, and if he breaks the two mile national record or breaks 4 in the mile, he will move higher up the list.

As for all of the bickering, I actually see wrongo\'s point and don\'t completely disagree with him. Clearly, this is the best distance double of all time, and indicates that Fernandez could compete well with any prep in history on the track. However, I think there are several guys - Webb, Ryun, Lindgren, and arguably Ritz, who have objectively achieved more as HS runners. I am surprised fewer people have mentioned Lindgren in this thread. His 8:40 indoors on a tight wooden track is certainly in the same league as 8:34 solo, and Lindgren ran a 4:01 mile himself. I think Lindgren is someone who could have pulled off a similar double, and that was well over 40 years ago. Webb ran 3:53 for the mile running stride for stride with Lagat and won several national titles. Lindgren ran 13:44.0, 8:40i (breaking the HS national record by 40 seconds, although I don\'t think it all came off in this one race), and 4:01 over 40 years ago, and Ritz ran 13:44, won two Footlocker titles over two of the best fields ever, and finished 3rd at world junior XC. Ryun was one of the best milers in the world and ran 3:55 for a full mile on a dirt track and probably could\'ve run a very fast two mile as well (he ran 8:25 as a freshman in college). Does Fernandez belong in the top 10 of all time based on his current accomplishments? Yes. Does he belong in the top 5? Possibly. Does he belong in the top 2-3 considering he has no national titles and no national records? Not yet... but the season isn\'t over.

When Lindgren ran 13:44.0, he broke what prior to that race had been the AMERICAN RECORD in the 5,000 meters!!!!! Bob Schul won that race, running 13:36 (if memory serves), establishing a new American record. Also, in the summer of his senior high school year, Lindgren came in ninth in the Olympic 10,000, on a very badly injured ankle. Bill Mills has always consistently maintained that had he not been hurt, Lindgren would have won the gold medal.

Intergalactic wrote:

Does he belong in the top 2-3 considering he has no national titles and no national records? Not yet... but the season isn't over.

gee, this sounds familiar.

I'm not wrongo... I just agree with his point that you can't put Fernandez over people like Webb, Ryun, Lindgren, and Ritz who set records and clearly established themselves as the best runners of their eras by means of championship titles.

Ritz is the greatest prep XC runner ever, anyone disagree?

Aided in the sense that when set in race with Open Runners all in race are not contesting for same prize. Same rule(until it became common to turn a blind eye to it) that kept males from pacing women distance races or having a rabbit jump in the race after 8 laps.

Foo bar baz wrote:

Why is there this big distinction if a HS record is set in HS only competition? If an American record is set in a race with non-Americans and the American doesn't finish first, we don't put an asterisk next to that record. Kennedy didn't win when he ran 12:58.

Montesquieu wrote:

random post wrote: "In a HS distance runner draft, I'm picking German over Ritzenhein. (That doesn't make him 3rd all time, just stating that Ritz isn't. You can't put Ritz over Virgin, Lindgren, Nelson, Chapa, Hulst, Kimball, Prefontaine)"

In high school Ritz ran 13:44.7 and came in third in the Jr. World XC. Yet not better than any of these guys?????

No, even though Ritz ran 13:44 and came in third. It is still arguable. First let me be clear, I am putting Webb and Ryun in a completely different category than any other runners.

Virgin - crazy doubles all the time, 13:51? and winner of World Junior XC..(pre-Africans but he beat everyone else)

Hulst - 8:44 (same as Ritz) and also won WJXC

Chapa - 28:32 HSR, 4:04

Prefontaine - 8:41, solo at a random invitational during the season.

Lindgren - no explanation needed, actually I would say he is without a doubt BETTER than Ritz at every event from 800m - XC and would probably win too (not like Rupp who is faster but probably wouldn't win)

Kimball - last person to run a double close to German's.

And in a draft, I say I pick German because his talent is unseen. He doesn't have the titles that some other guys have but none of those distance guys (save Webb, Ryun) showed his same talent level. He has basically been injured his whole career then puts together this type of year.

Personally, I think a 4:00/8:34 double solo is better than a 13:44. The real question as someone stated earlier is can he get a 5000m in to break the record. If you don't think he can at bare minimum add a 4:30 to that 8:36 you are probably kidding yourself (if you minus the 4:11 prelim, 4:00 1600 and maybe the 4:07/8:45 the weekend before - but that is probably not needed)

The reason why you can't put Ritz as a 3 man is because he could reasonably get beat by people who aren't all time types. He would most likely have lost to Centro (closed in 1:59 800m).

random, maybe for track Ritz doesn't get top 3 but if you include XC he has to be in that group. 2x footlocker winner against arguably some of the most stacked fields we will ever see, World Junior XC bronze medalist against the Africans. The kid was a monster on the grass.

Prefontaine ran his record at the State Meet, running 4:25 then 4:15 +, great negative split.

When did they change the sched in CA, having the 1600 first, then the 3200? It used to be the other way around. (I ran in the State Meet here in CA back in '77, the 2 mile was at the start of the meet, the mile later) Kimball's double was the deuce first, then the mile (with a 56 last lap, not bad).

Hernandez has put himself right up there at the top - yeah, some will compare Lindgren running on crappy old tracks, but give the 'new kid' credit for crying out loud. Best double ever. I don't doubt Webb could have pulled that off if he'd been inclined (think of Webb's ridiculous triple just before his 3:53) but he didn't. Good to see so many great kids arrive on scene the last few years and continue to improve in the senior ranks. Hope Hernandez is another one.

BTW, Hulst, Virgin etc were racing Kenyans, but the Kenyans weren't as "organized" as they are today, and they weren't running a horde of over-age runners as they do now, unfortunately. The flip side is that while there is a lot of talent in the East African highlands, there are athletes with the capability in the US and elsewhere, it's a question of getting enough kids to compete or to believe they can compete. Some may not run as fast in HS as the legends listed above but that doesn't mean they can't keep improving as they mature, a la Mottram or Steve Scott etc.

Foo bar baz wrote:

Why is there this big distinction if a HS record is set in HS only competition? If an American record is set in a race with non-Americans and the American doesn't finish first, we don't put an asterisk next to that record. Kennedy didn't win when he ran 12:58.

Because high school is about competing against your peers. I don't think a high school record should count in the summer AFTER high school. You are not in high school after June....move on.

Possible exception is a high school sanctioned meet like NON, etc, but not US junior nationals.

Once you have gone thru high school graduation ceremony you are no longer in high school.