Lydiard Aerobic Phase

Good attempt at meaningful dialogue, you will not recieve as much from naf who is zealot anti lydiard cultist (alc.)naf has proven incapable of discussing Lydiard principles or philosophy due to his ingorance of Lydiard.

troll:) wrote:

Skuj I ask you to do the same other wise you are nothing more than a member of the Anti - lydiard cult alc. You clowns throw out all these challenges, make up a ridiculous test then refuse to participate but instead sit back and take pot shots, while some so called lydiardites in what I used to think was naiveness would attempt to no avail some meaning dialogue in an attempt to understand your "position".

Their position (if not their identity) is the same: "How dare people not recognize *me* as the Center Of The Universe, the ultimate genius of geniuses and authority on everything. Anyone else, even a dead guy, getting this much respect is a threat to my getting the recognition I deserve."

Mr. Ray wrote:

It's interesting your perception that, in the Lydiard dogma, "straight lacing" is on equal footing with "100 miles a week", or the "hill-phase", when it comes to applying the Lydiard way. I didn't put lacing in the same perspective, and it's the first time I've ever heard anyone interpret lacing like that and offer that viewpoint. I see it the way you said you would accept it, "seen as recommendation or a kind of curiosity or a personal Lydiard little advise". I gather most people, if not everyone, see it like that, and would not be swayed by a few fanatics.

This is the point. That´s not me that said that or invented that.

(Open the Lydiard Foundation site)

(and then on the top of the homepage)

TRAINING - ARTICLES

(on right side) Back to Training

(on right side) Undersatsnding the Lydiard method

(click on NEXT 3 times)

You may read

What people say the Lydiard method is:

- running 100miles a week

- dividing the season into blocks

- special hill training (hill circuit)

- pogo-stick-jump like sprint drills for distance runners

- unique shoe lacing system

Actually it is all the above.

I ask you: who else than the Lydiard foundation to let us know what is Lydiard training and what is not ?

One more note: the long run isn´t included on the list. I presume that the way Lydiard the experts they see it the shoe lacing it is as important as the other items and more important tahn the long run.

Conclusion: if you miss the long run that you are still a Lydiard runner but if you miss the Lydiard lace shoe you aren´t.

For all the rest i keep lace the shoes my own way.

Thanks for the compliment. I think my expectations are realistic, and he may be a lot of other things, but I don't think he is ignorant of Lydiard.

Moron? European who thinks he is better than non-europeans? Finds it difficult to think clearly? Doesn't have any gripes other than a general negativity towards life. Has stuffed up his own running career? Hasn't bothered to take the time to refine his English sufficiently for this forum? Misses the point often? Do these and more explain our genius anti-Lydiardite? Moron? I will take moron Nobby and leave you with idiot. :)

not a fanatic wrote:

It's so annoying reading what you write. Do you ever get annoyed by your own thoughts?

I don't think you have any real experience in track and field do you? This is pretty clear now. You don't know how to analyse anything properly so you have to be totally intellectual about it. No practical experience or simply no self-realisations or ability to analyse yourself? Or maybe you don't even run!

By the way who are you actually talking to?

You are so confused in trying to understand everything and appear to know everything that you miss the whole point of gaining knowledge. Simplify. Reduce the amount of crap that is in your brain. From what you have been saying there is way too much.

So let me help you cease this way of thinking you have that is causing everything to be unclear for you. It must be hell. I mean it is hell for us and we are only second hand recipients.

The SYSTEM is not important. The SYSTEM can take any form it wants as long as the FUNDAMENTALS are being followed. Because the SYSTEM is not important, it just IS NOT IMPORTANT. Hence why there is no 'system' laid down by Lydiard. He knew as i know that to create a system is to immediately limit free expression. Many know this, it is not made up. Maybe you even know this.

So to not limit oneself by a system or a dogma as i think you referred to it as, one must become aware of the fundamentals and how they relate. Without such awareness we are left with copying another's system. Whose system do you copy?

You should probably start looking into the fundamentals fanatica. See Arthur had them sussed, Better than any other coach i have ever discovered. When one has them sussed then they are free to alter and change the training flow as they see fit, as is needed by the athlete. This of course is anti-systemic.

The fundamentals fanatica. WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

lets go at it as your line is now so boring i'm driven to this to get some stimulation.

I read this one slide (as well as the rest of the presentation), but I don't draw your conclusion. Where do you read these points have equal weight, and that this list is exhaustive? The source of this list is "what people say" -- see the title. The rest of the slides add a lot more information (click NEXT 26 more times), including 2 hour runs. Where is your perspective? Are you reading without perspective on purpose, to help support your claim that Lydiard fanatics lack perspective.Who better than the Lydiard foundation? Lydiard wrote whole books. So did many of his athletes. The Lydiard Foundation is consistent with other stuff I read, and I think I have the right perspective on how lacing fits into the big picture. I don't think the Lydiard Foundation is claiming lacing is equally important. Nor if they were, do I think many people would be swayed.

whilst i am at it

you said this

"sim said about Bruce Lee that he considered the aerobics condition the base of a good shape condition and that he used to run some miles."

Ok so Bruce who was an explorer and innovator of human training on an operational level that is beyond everyone that has ever been. Sorry guys but that includes Arthur. I would like to explain but it's not really pertinent at the moment.

How do you go with me calling Bruce the king of all physical beings fanatica? How do you feel when i say that he is the best of the best?

Now he explored the training world to a depth that Arthur also did. I see this. It's not tricky. Do you know what i mean by depth? Like deeper than anyone else. So what is at the bottom of all of the exploration? The aerobic. Arthur didn't invent it. I don't know if anyone is claiming that. Bruce didn't invent it. They were explorers and in their respective journies discovered the same thing. And knew it was so. You can know too if you can let go of this hyper-scepticism you have.

So we have the discovery of something that was already there. We have the fleshing out of this discovery over time to formulate a 'way'. We then have the application of this way to produce some results by Arthur that simply are not matched by anyone to date in the distance running world.

This just makes me pay extra special attention. For you it creates a block of attention. The block from seeing what is really there.

good luck

whatthehellwasallthat? I'm sure you could go on and on, and you're right...it doesn't matter

Man you just don't get it by now. I am beginnning to think you are as thick as naf is. Two heads to the same coin perhaps? Reality check here you will NEVER I repeat NEVER get any meaningful educational dialogue from this or any other alc for that matter. They are cultists not capbale of thinking for themselves and only offer what has been put forth so far. For further evidence of this go to the daniels and lydiard thread.

The only objective they have is destroying any Lydiard thread that shows up on this board and depriving others who actually may want to learn something about this approach or are seeking answers to their questions or actually having an intelligent conversation comparing one approach to another. Why frustrate yourself further with these cultists.

My suggestion would be to continue on but ignore the bait these cultists throw out which only serves and successfully so up to this point to pull the thread off topic. This would serve to functions keep the subject on track and drive the cultists crazy they don't like being ignored.

[quote]Mr. Ray wrote:

I read this one slide (as well as the rest of the presentation), but I don't draw your conclusion. Where do you read these points have equal weight, and that this list is exhaustive? The source of this list is "what people say" -- see the title.

[quote]not a fanatic wrote:

And where do you read that the points haven´t the same weight ? When several issues were put side by side or one bellow the other(s) all the issues have the same importance. This is an universal statement of wrighting and literature.

There are there percents of importance? If don´t i may take the conclusion that´s all the issues have similar interest for the one who wrote it. Otherwise why is there present the lacing shoe if that´s not as important as the other issues ? If the list that´s not exhaustive why in 5 items they did include the lacing shoe ?

May I consider that the 100miles or the hill training isn´t´ important because the title is "what people says" and the list isn´t exahustive ?

I read the title but you shall read the answer to the question: "Actually it is all the above". If they say "it is all the above that´s because the lace shoe "is the one" one, not because "isn´t".

The irrelevance of the lace shoe on the context of the Lydiard training should be taked out if that´s not relevant. Anyhow what i read is that the lace shoe that´s part of what is considered the Lydiard training, a undeniable part i wouuld say. Or i may take out the lace shoes ? Early you did ask me a question about the lace shoes. I keep my opinion: that´s ridiculous they consider the lace shoe as make part of the Lydiard training. So, i consider the Lydiard training ridiculous on that aspect. Here you have the answer to part of your questions. The Lydiard training thta´s ridiculous in that issue.

no you are right i'm just indulging in an exercise in frustration :)

Who by the way is fanatica? Does anyone know his real name?

See he thinks it is a universal rule that when points are listed they carry the same weight. I have never heard this before. It is like he just made that up.

I think to understand where Lydiard was coming from it takes a little more than the average intelligence. The subtlety required in thinking seems to be beyond a lot of people. For instance thinking the points in the list have the same weight and inventing a 'rule' to try and support his argument. Also not realising that everything is made up of percents. Things must be pretty black and white in his world. Hard to see the subtle things in life when the brain works like this. :)

Mr. Ray wrote:

Where is your perspective? Are you reading without perspective on purpose, to help support your claim that Lydiard fanatics lack perspective?

very nice

Mr. Ray wrote:

What people say the Lydiard method is:

- running 100miles a week

- dividing the season into blocks

- special hill training (hill circuit)

- pogo-stick-jump like sprint drills for distance runners

- unique shoe lacing system

Actually it is all the above.

And possibly a few more things although like any non-systematic 'way' it is all open to discussion and interpretation. We all perceive differently.

Here is how i perceive it (maybe you can tell us how you perceive it?)

- let the aerobic base build from the bottom up, as explained by just run whatever speed you want, as you get fitter you will get faster. This really won't work without a target to aim at and 100 miles is the perfect target according to one man who explored all the way up to 250miles. Sounds trustworthy. Plenty of people agree. Most of the top 20 of all time (17 i think) hit 100 miles a week in their preparation phase.

- divide the season into blocks or periodisation. The Soviets used general preparation, specific preparation, pre-competition and competition. Lydiard used marathon base training, hill training, anaerobic training, sharpening training. The Soviets emphasised aerobic in phase 1, strength in phase 2, power in phase 3 and speed in phase 4. It seems the same with Lydiard. I simplify though but that's basically it.

- special hill training - the hill circuit. Well it is unique in my experience and having explored it i can't better it. It is complete in itself and quite beautiful :). I did look through Jim Ryun's training for the year leading up to his world records. He had a hill circuit listed in his training in the leadup to his sub 4 min mile in high school

Base Work in Winter [February 20 to February 26, 1964] 106 miles/week

===============================================

February 20 [14.5 miles]

AM 5 miles - strides

PM 20x440

4.5 miles - strides

February 21 [17 miles]

AM 5 miles - strides

PM hill work - 6 times series

1. up 200 yard hill (steep)

2. stride 880 on top, controlled sprint down (gradual incline

down)

3. stride 440 flat

4. sprint 6x50 and 3x220 with strides between each

So it was a 4 stage circuit and he repeated it 6 times. Remarkably similar to Lydiard.

So i wonder if Ryun's coach gained information from Lydiard or if he came to the same conclusion as Lydiard completely independently?

-pogo stick springing up the hill - to develop anaerobic power endurance through the specific range of sprinting. Canova said he gets Cherono to run over hurdles up hills -similar effect in my mind. Bounding would cover similar things but have less of a strength element involved. It's just a wonderful multi-faceted exercise (insdie the overall hill circuit) for developing so many different qualities at once.

- shoe lacing system that feels better to most people that try it. Why not?

How about a few other things:

- identification of the correct hip position for running. Cerutty knew this, there is even a photo of him demonstrating it. For me as a technical event athlete, i had to see Lydiard's mechanics were correct or else i would probably not pay attention. Well they were correct although Snell did confuse me as the footage of his Rome win was one of the first examples i saw. Not really 'on' as most of Arthur's guys were so i wonder about that. Like what could he have run if he was more 'on' his posture?

- progressive development of the fundamentals. Eg. I would really like to know if overall hill development went something like this: develop steady running on the flat, then add some hills to the steady running, gradually add more hills into some of the long runs until the hill phase seems like the next logical step. Is this anything like it went?

- aerobic development is open ended: was a crucial concept i gained from Lydiard but from nowhere else in my life. nthe idea that one can continue to develop this part of your system pretty much forever if one chose. The implications are wonderful: one can theoretically train themsleves to a higher level of perceived talent. There are plenty of stories i just can't remember one right now. IS one of Lydiard's athletes considered like this to some degree. Prefontaine claims his performances were due to hard work instead of talent. Nice perspective. It doesn't matter what you've already got, it only matters how hard you strive for more.

cheers

[

(click on NEXT 3 times)

http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/understandinglydiardmethod.aspx

You may read

What people say the Lydiard method is:

- running 100miles a week

- dividing the season into blocks

- special hill training (hill circuit)

- pogo-stick-jump like sprint drills for distance runners

- unique shoe lacing system

Actually it is all the above.

I ask you: who else than the Lydiard foundation to let us know what is Lydiard training and what is not ?

Nobby, and by extension, the Lydiard Foundation has the legal right to let you know what Lydiard training is and is not. Arthur stipulated in his will that Nobby was to inherit Arthur's intellectual property. I don't know the exact wording, but Arthur was very rpecise about who was to serve as his spokesperson after he was gone.

That's not going to put an end to opinions and discussions. But while he was alive, Arthur obviously was the final authority on what was and wasn't consistent with his ideas. Now that he's gone, he passed that role to Nobby who created the Fpundation to carry out that work.

HRE, thanks for MOST of your response to my previous query....but what does "you won't find any schedules or anything" mean? :)

(:llort wrote:

troll:) wrote:

Skuj I ask you to do the same other wise you are nothing more than a member of the Anti - lydiard cult alc. You clowns throw out all these challenges, make up a ridiculous test then refuse to participate but instead sit back and take pot shots, while some so called lydiardites in what I used to think was naiveness would attempt to no avail some meaning dialogue in an attempt to understand your "position".

Their position (if not their identity) is the same: "How dare people not recognize *me* as the Center Of The Universe, the ultimate genius of geniuses and authority on everything. Anyone else, even a dead guy, getting this much respect is a threat to my getting the recognition I deserve."

Ah here we go. "Skuj is naf, Skuj was IQ100". It amuses me now.

Some of you should know better.

Skuj wrote:

HRE, thanks for MOST of your response to my previous query....but what does "you won't find any schedules or anything" mean? :)

Here we go again intelligent responses and discussion about to be derailed by a troll anti lydiard cultist named skuj. technically speaking why don't you take another six mongths off heh heh heh

discuss with yourself.

An questionnaire lent to me about John Higham, an athlete coached by Stampfl.

John Kenneth Higham

6'3"

racing weight 62kgs

years competing at top - 1977-80

age at peak - 28

personal bests:

100- 10.6

200- 21.2

400- 45.7

600- 1.14.7

800- 145.6

schoolboy bests

400- 53.5

800- 2.00.6

mile- 4:42.0

Winter training - a brief outline

morning - 4-5 miles (6 min pace)

evening - large quantum slow reps eg 10x400/400jog rec in 60 seconds or 10x600/400 jog rec in 100 seconds

timetrials on weekend over 300 or 600

what was your bread and butter (most valuable) session:

time trials always kept me in touch with speed. Often it was the only speed work i did and it seemed to work

What do you know now that you wish you knew when you were racing?

I was always too impatient, I wanted to run to the maximum every time i trained or raced and if i did not measure up to my own self imposed standards i would become very anxious. If i had learned to control that, if i had accepted the occasional below par session or race i may not have injured myself and been ill all the time.

What do you think the one golden rule in trainign which must be adhered to?

As Pat Clohessey used to say, and i only iwsh i had listened to him "don't be greedy".