Changed Marathon Trials numbers

1. There are issues with members of the committee not being present or more importantly not being aware that a vote was being held on the issue of trials standards.

2. There are issues, accessibility, with the meeting being in Hawaii. Having a meeting in Hawaii, is not exactly operating in the figurative sunshine when you are an IN state actor.

3. Do changes like this have to be discussed publically? In Indiana, a state actor, which USATF may not be presently- but there are strong argument that it should be like the IHSAA. Courts have classified the NCAA has not a state actor and that is what USATF is relying on- but that is not legally supported or set in stone. Anyhow, a public governing body has to have all of it's meetings in the "sunshine" meaning open to the public and they must consider and hear public comment- neither of which happened in this case. Also USATF has a history of not following its own rules, with athlete admission to meets, with Sandra Farmer Patrick holding a position she is clearly not qualified for (she has not represented the US internationally in the last 8 years)etc. (I keep a list) - there are plenty of grounds to seek a state court injunction on. Whether or not a violation of the IN sunshine laws has occurred is going to take further research, but there are plenty of other legal issues at USATF headquarters that present bargaining leverage.

4. What this comes down to is is USATF more like a state high school athletic association or like the NCAA? If they are a like the former, then this rule change is legally void and USATF would have to have hearing and have the vote in public, etc. If not then our best chance is in the press.

Making the standard 218 does nothing to promote US distance running. What is does is 1. allow the talent less (Glen Latimer et. all) to continue to judge who is and is not talented. 2. Allows Nike and other big shoe companies to ensure that the trials are full of mostly their runners. 3. Protects athletes chosen by USATF while crushing the hopes of those of us who were not stars coming right out of high school.

wejo wrote:

My belief is USATF should discuss the decision beforehand with people who the decision affects, this includes marathon trials qualifiers and potential marathon trials qualifiers. LetsRun.com is a perfect avenue for this.

Is that supposed to be a joke?

I think this will DISCOURAGE a lot of 2:22-2:28 guys from trying, especially if they are a little older. Bad move IMHO. Just qualifying for the Trials is a life-changing journey AND experience. I'm one who would have been eliminated by this move last go 'round. The gap will broaden between the elite (sub-2:16) and the sub-elite. The elite group will continue to grow. The sub-elite will thin and slow. Thanks, Latimer. You really don't see the big picture, do you?

It is remarkably myopic to say that the only purpose of the trials is to select our team and that should be the end of it. Of course, that is the primary purpose, but if an event can do more than one thing at once, then why not take advantage of it? The trials are a major motivator for top amateurs in this country, most of whom will never actually qualify. This motivator is actually not external, as some have argued. The sub elites appreciate the race for its own sake. They just want the chance to toe the line and to test themselves against the best in the country.

The notion that "they'll just have to work that much harder" is quite patronizing. The simple truth is that 2:22 is beyond the genetic capability of most trials dreamers. It is fortunate that they continue training for it anyway. 2:19 is even further out of reach, and many runners will realize that even a miracle race will not get them to run that fast. This will have a negative effect on sub elite marathoning.

I'm a lawyer and I hope to God that you're not.

5. There is a gender equity issue if they don't tighten the women's standards.

6. The courses used to qualify is arbitrary, if an exception is made for Boston and NYC why not St. George- they all don't meet standards, why make an exception for the first two and not the latter? USATF better come up with a reason, or face a potential law suit from a race that is not eligible. Or from an athlete who qualifies at such a race and is left out and an athlete who qualifies at Boston gets in.

I will be the first to admit that I am mostly thinking out loud on a message board which I normally don't. But I am trying to generate some interest. "Caveman" I am an attorney- people like you are the reason why I am embarrassed to admit that. If you care about the sport, help me out where I am wrong? Where should I look? And for the love of God be ethical and post under your real name.

What business do mature, serious runners have in coming here? (Kudos to people like J.A. McVeigh for sticking it out with dignity.) Stay away, for your own good, if that's how you truly feel about this site.

kumbawhat wrote:

The problem with our sport isn't so much the television coverage or the lack of sponsorship, etc. It is the bitter and self-loathing element WITHIN the sport. People come to this web page and they are bombarded with negativity, criticisms, and accusations.

ex-rgs wrote:

USA Track & Field's Mission Statement:

The mission of USATF is to provide vision and leadership to the sport of Athletics in the United States, and to promote the pursuit of excellence from youth to masters, from grass roots to the Olympic Games.

I don't see anywhere in here that says the primary mission of USATF is to put on the best possible race for those that have a chance to win...

Hmm, so USATF is assumed to cover all of those areas of mission via the Olympic Trials? There are events for grassroots, there are events for youth, there are events for masters, and there are events even for the best of the best. What do 2:19-2:22 marathoners have to do with the "Olympic Games" part?

Ruler of the Universe wrote:

I think this was a great move! It is a positie step for US long distance running.. It will make everyone work much harder... Mark my words... Even with these changes, there will be just as many runners who qualify in 2012 as there were in 2008 because runners "who really want it" will step up to the challenge and work harder...

Do you want to put some money on that? I'll bet that there will be fewer qualifiers for the 2012 Oly Marathon Trials...

wow. my estimation of indiana lawyers just took a major hit. state actor? indiana law? sunshine? might want to do a little research on that stuff. or just think about it for more than a second.

Defrantz v. USOC (492 F. Supp 1181) - the USOC is not a state actor. Further the national governing bodies of the various sports are not state actors (Behagen 884 F.2d 524)

Additionally athletes have no private right of action under the Stevens Act (slaney v. IAAF 244 F.3d 580)

So that limits all possible legal recourse to USATF not following their own by laws? Is that correct? Caveman? If USATF is not a state actor, would they be treated as a corporation since they are state charted in IN? If that is the case who are the "shareholders"? As members are we shareholders? IN is an American rule state, allowing individual shareholders in closely held corporations to bring dirivitive actions in cases of corporate waste? Is having an annual meeting in Hawaii corporate waste?

I can't believe that some quasi state actor like the USOC or USATF is not accountable to some governmental agency.

OldTimer2 wrote:

I think this will DISCOURAGE a lot of 2:22-2:28 guys from trying, especially if they are a little older.

Well welcome to the world of the 2:30-2:50 marathoner, for whom the Boston qualification times are a joke and the OT qualification times are light years away. Instead of pissing and moaning about USATF taking away a carrot that they nicely offered (to a really thin demographic of runners) for so long, how about we - the running community - cook up ways to grow the ranks of the 2:19-2:50 marathoners? How about a Letsrun (or Flocast or whatever) Invitational Marathon? Hold it in conjunction with a major or mid-major marathon?

Look, I don't like how USATF operates, either, but I've been wise to them for years and don't expect anything from them anyway. Let's stop expecting USATF to be interested in the development of post-collegiate amateurs, it's just unrealistic. We don't need USATF, we need the strength and initiative of brotherhood. Stop thinking of this as a problem and start viewing it as an opportunity.

Hey Chuck D. thanks for the compliments. I really appreciate your help in trying to improve the sport. The state actor remark, there are plenty of valid reasons USATF would be considered a governmental actor- their authority is derived directly from a congressional charter for one.

2. Indiana law- Yes- USATF files an IN tax return, is served in IN, headquarted in IN and is an IN charted corp.

3. Sunshine? Sunshine laws are a term of art (and general knowledge) requiring that public servants and agencies operate in the sunshine i.e. the public eye.

And even though I did the research, I am not convinced that three above mentioned things are totally out of play. If you have better idea than help me out instead of being a dick. All I want to do is ensure that my high school runners have a better sport than the one I currently compete in.

Jon Little

Member of the IN bar (for about two months) and 2008 Olympic Trials marathoner.

With all due respect, Esquire, you're sorta naive, not to mention self-important and thin-skinned. Good luck suing USATF, though, if anyone deserves it it's them.

Jonathan Little wrote:

help me out instead of being a dick.

Being a dick is his role around here.

He'll post again soon, incredulous that anyone would think to question any of his great thoughts.

No matter which side of the situatin yo stand, can we agree that a "unanimous vote" sounds suspicious? There are 9 pages of people that aren't pleaed ut yet Glenn Latimer keeps responding that the group was in 100% agrement. Is Latimer's group an honest representation of the running public? I say NO. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

At least they are including a half marathon qualifying time.

Try 9 pages of people who can't be bothered to get involved at all until they perceive their sense of entitlement isn't being served well enough.