Some more information about kenyan athletes

He can't do it, and therefore won't.

The sebastian Coe, Peter Coe combination was a rare one, which worked. If Peter Coe had trained 1000 athletes over the years he would no doubt have found one with more talent than Seb.

He obviously had the talent but maybe only enough talent to go as fast as he did, if he was more talented maybe he would be going quicker than El G. He was also lucky enough to have a father with the interest and also the drive to train him hard and at the same time be a student of the sport himself.

Again he came from a good system, albeit a lucky combination. There are more talented runners who never get into those systems.

Example - I did an athletics meet many years ago where a 13year old ran a 50sec 400m and blew the rest of the field away by most of the straight. It was a development meeting to try and search for prosepctive talent - when approached the kid said he didnt like running and preferred football and was not interested in track and his parents couldnt have cared what he did- simple as that!! For the refenrence I dont see him in any professional football teams now but he could have been one hell of an athlete.

we may have 20 american athletes that have the talent and are

willing for the committment, but not the same as 300 kenyans who have the talent and more commettment. i don't think you can just

take out the culture that easy, too much tv, too much girlfriend, too much movie, too much junk food, too much car, too much work,

too much society pressure--"why don't you get a real job and provide for your family"

take armstrong for example--talent of course, committment yes,

but look at his focus for one event---TDF. and you see results.

on another note, i was able to order the manual yesterday from

iaaf, via email, and they sent me back reply that it would be sent

today.

Pre,

Let us know how you like it.

I agree with 'unknown' about the talent 'pool' in U.S.

It's not as simple as taking a few 28 minute guys since most of them -- not all -- think they already know everything.

A few 31/32 women could work though.

In general women are much more stable, work harder, and do much more than men do.

sexist

I also coul be courious of what can happen with some white athlete of good talent. I agree with somebody of you when you think that the best coaches are not those that have the best athletes, but those that have more knowledge. So, you admit that performances are fruit of a mix of good training and of talent. I'm italian, and I know European coaches very advanced in their methodology, that have not great results as their athletes are not so talented. So, I can assure you that the most part of white athletes can improve very much with a better methodology, BUT NOT THAT THEY CAN WIN A MEDAL IN A BIG EVENT, because their talent is not like the talent of top african runners. Here, is not a problem OF WHAT YOU WILL TO DO. I'm sure that many young runners could accept to train very hard, having the goal of a dream. I think also that, in US like in Europe, we can find some ecception that can be good like african runners (for example, I think of the talent of Italian Genny Di Napoli, of sure not minor than the talent of a Kenyan). The problem is that, at the moment, who has this type of talent is not doing this type of activity.

If you accept the idea that TRAINING IS EVERY THING CAN BUILD YOUR BODY IN SAME DIRECTION, not only what you do in "official" way, you must understand that a 18 years old guy that ran 10-30 km per day, every day, from when he was 6years old (so he could have 12 years of massive natural training THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW TO HAVE DONE), you must also accept the idea, knowing the normal type of life of a western student, THAT HE CANNOT BE SO PREPARED IN HIS BODY AND IN HIS MIND. We can try to reverse the problem.

I don't think that a Kenyan has not good attitude for beeing a good biker, for example. BUT WHY NO AFRICANS ARE GOOD BIKERS ? And someone is trying to train in cycling from long time (3-4 years), as this idea was also the idea of some top team in cycling. The answer is : because, in any case, THEY HAVE NO PREPARATION LONG ENOUGH FOR BEEING COMPETITIVE.

In another post, you have to face the problem : WHAT IS TALENT ?

You can give many different answers, but one thing is sure : WHEN YOU TAKE AN ATHLETE ABLE RUNNING AT 18 YEARS 13:30 in 5k, speaking about middle distance, this one is of sure more talented of another running in 15:30.

You have already someone NATURALLY prepared in his cohordination, in his elastic reactivity, in his general endurance, and in his mind for running mentally free.

Kenyans start an official training ALREADY FROM THE 85-90% OF THEIR TOP LEVEL, WHITE PEOPLE FROM 30-50%.

So, can happen that Kenyan has not the same will of a western white young boy, and that is not able to improve very much, running fast the first year and then disappearing ; but of sure the white with great will MUST SPEND 10-12 YEARS OF HIS LIFE BEFORE REACHING THE SAME LEVEL THAT THE KENYAN HAS AT HIS BEGINNING.

I've no problem in following some white athlete for improving, and already I'm doing this (I received a lot of e-mail, and I try to reply to the most part of them, according to my possibilities), and I'm sure that almost all people can improve, but, please, don't dream what is not possible to reach with very less talent than another athlete. WITH YOUR WILL, YOU CAN REACH THE BEST OF WHAT YOU CAN DO, BUT NOT WHAT YOU CANNOT DO.

I like singing, but never I can become Pavarotti or Sinatra. You like running, but never can become Gebrselassie. And, if someone can, when is 18 years old is already able running in 13:30 without big problems and big "official" training.

Never Michael Johnson ran 100m in 12.0, or Carl Lewis jumped 5 meters (may be when they were 13 years old...).

So, be able in recognize your limits, without dreaming what is not possible. In this way, can be that you can reach WHAT IS POSSIBLE, and at the moment I refuse the idea that in US cannot be 30 runners able running under 13:30, 28:20 and 2:12. But Olympic medals is something different.

To add furhter confirmation to Renato, this is from Luis de Oliveria:

De Oliveira uses the experiences of Kenya to provide one illustration of his point. ?Those young athletes ran long distances to school for many years, and in doing so, they developed day-by-day into excellent middle-distance runners, even at an early age. In the US or in western Europe, people drive to school or ride school buses. This means their runners are at the same point at a much older age than those in Kenya.?

Renato,

I must ask -- what do you think of those American runners that have run extremely well as juniors? In 2001, there was both Dathan Ritzenhein running 13:44 and Alan Webb running 3:53. I realize that runners like Eliud Kipchoge and Cornelius Chirchir are far ahead of those two at similar ages, but do American juniors like that not show that there is some comparable level of talent in the US?

I don't know the attitude of Wejo, but of course it's not possible running 2:17 with 28:06 in 10000m. I've athletes that, with 30 min, were able running in 2:11 with very little talent. So, there are only two possibilities :

a) The athlete is trying something for what is totally "unsuited" (for example, be sure that if Morceli wanted running a full Marathon, never he could become a top marathoner), so is better that can come-back to 5 and 10k

b) The athlete trains very hard, but also very bad. Not always "To train hard" is synonym of good work. "To train well" is better, and many times these two situations are not able to go together.

But, what I want to explain, the work of a coach is not to send programs thru e-mail without following the athlete (if not always, in any case for some time during the season). Also with Kenyans, I see that they can improve very much when stay with me for long time, not always when are alone following my programs without specific control. A champion has to be built in his technique, his body, his mind. Psychology is very important.

Regarding Wejo (that I don't know), I think that his psychological approach to the race is wrong. He creates to much pressure in himself, and destroys himself before the race not only with very hard work, but also with too high expectations that become for him like an exam. He's not mentally free while running, but burdened by the "must" of running fast. He fears the competition, because fears to fail.

Wejo, be more tranquil, try to remove your anxiety, and in short time you can run 2:12 : it's not a big exploit, if you have attitude.

Trackhead,

I don't know thru what a system of training they arrived to those results. In Kenya, the 90% of training for young runners is "natural training" with aerobic direction. So, they run long run easy, 20 min hard, some repetition not very hard (no longer than 400m) and some fartlek (normally using 1 min fast / 1 min easy). They don't seek any intensity. So, they are able running 13:20 and 3:35 only with general and basic training. THEY HAVE YET TO START THEIR REAL TRAINING.

Instead (but may be that I am wrong, I don't know), I've the sensation that US runners use a system based on intervals, anaerobic training, very intense workouts. This type of training cannot be used like normal system, because permits to reach in short time good results, but destroys your body instead to build it.

Without a big base (Lydiard was the first, and you always remember him) is not possible to improve in quality and to consolidate your level.

I want to give an example.

There is an athlete training 4 times per week, using the same schedule. When is in his top shape, his week is the following :

Mon : 30 min easy + 15 x 400 in 63.0 recovery 1 min

Tue : 40 min easy + speed (5 sets of 4 x 100m in 14)

Wed : Rest

Thu : 10 x 1000m in 3:00 rec. 2 min

Fri : 50 min progressive run

Sat : Rest

Sun : Race (3-5 km)

The total mileage is about 40 miles per week.

This athlete goes running a 10000m, and is able running in 31 min. SO, SOMEONE THINKS THAT THE RELATION BETWEEN 10x1000m AND THE RACE IS : INTERVALS AT 3:00 = RACE AT 3:06.

Next year, you mantain the same schedule, BUT EVERY DAY YOU GO FOR AN AEROBIC SESSION, so your schedule is :

Mon : a) 1 hr moderate b) Like before

Tue : a) 40 min easy b) Like before

Wed : 1 hr with last 20 min hard

Thu : The same (only one session)

Fri : a) 1 hr 10 min moderate b) Like before

Sat : 1 hr at moderate pace

Sun : Race (5-10 km, for example no more short cross, but long distance)

The total mileage is now about 85-90 miles per week.

Nothing changed about intervals, NOR THE NUMBERS OF REPETITIONS, NEITHER THE DURATION OF REST, NEITHER THE SPEED.

You go running a race of 10000m and are able running in 29:50, FASTER THAN YOUR INTERVALS OF 1000m.

So, now the relation between 10x1000 and the race is :

INTERVALS AT 3:00 = RACE AT 2:59.

What did it happen ? That YOUR SPECIFIC TRAINING OF INTERVALS NOW IS ABSORBED INSIDE THE VOLUME, and its output is better than before.

SO, THE IMPROVEMENT IS NOT IN RUNNING ALWAYS FASTER, BUT IN A CORRECT BALANCE BETWEEN RUNNING LONGER, INCREASING VOLUME, AND RUNNING EASIER AT THE SAME SPEED.

Your body and your mind are full of energy, not always exhausted. Thru too many intervals, you finish in short time your nervous fuel, and your tank can be empty for long time.

But, I repeat, can be that my impression is wrong : I don't know the reality, mine is only a supposition.

For what anyone aspires, forget about anyone else. Start from WHERE YOU ARE NOW and progress from there. Nevermind what someone else is doing. That doesn't matter. But everyone can start from today, and do a bit more tomorrow, and much more one year from today.

Renato,

Your messages are right on the mark. I have full confidence in the things you say, and this is quite rare, if anyone knows me, to say this of anyone. Your talent for coaching and expressing are quite admirable.

Renato,

You are right in that America's top juniors were not untrained (in the formal sense). But those were two very differently trained runners. Ritzenhein (13:44) was running up to 145km/week at workouts would be as much as 30k @ 3:20/km. Webb (3:53mi) never ran a week greater than 100km, and usually was in the 80km range, and all his work was track, anaerobic work.

Most high school/junior programs in the US are track work/anaerobically focused and put little in the way of long term development. Training volume is low, and what volume is there, it is of a very high percentage at quality. But there are always a few exceptions.

I guess this becomes my question: if American/western youths were on their feet mouch more, and run 20km per day in general activity from youth (age 8) through 18 years old, do you think that the American/western youths would be more competitive with their Kenyan/Ethiopian/Moroccan rivals?

Trackhead,

I'm absolutely sure about it. If our type of life was different, and children could use their body for running, playing, doing every type of physical activity, they could be more strong, more prepared, more confident regarding fatigue, suffering, concentration in extensive intensity.

But the current focus is on hand ability, rapidity of mind that doesn't coincide with rapidity of muscles. The focus is to use and be able to dominate a machine, working for us. The focus is to improve in ability, forgetting fatigue. The focus is to seek something more comfortable, and running long and fast is not comfortable.

So, may be that someone, at a certain period of his life, decides to be fully involved in hard work, in fatigue, beeing very serious and continuous in his training : but his starting level is far from the level of whom used this type of life from his birth.

May be that there is some genetic difference between african and white people, but it's not so significant. The big gap is in different types of life, that prepare your body and your mind to be a runner instead to be an extension of a machine.

Another fact is that in our society all people run (but nobody runs in athletic way), so also in the mind of very motivated people there is an unconscious research to find some work lasting short time, replacing extension (that spends time) with intensity (that lasts less time).

Nobody has more time to read "the book of running", in all its pages, that means to develop step by step using patience your attitudes in specific way, building at first the base, and then the top.

The most part of young runners now think to know the book reading only the summary, that means to go soon to specific work and to intensity, without spending time for escaving a correct foundation for their house.

The final result is that now nobody can build a skyscraper, not having foundations enough, but only a small house. If someone tries to build a skyscraper, at the half of his design it falls down, because cannot be stable enough.

To be a champion means not only to train hard, but to organize your life in that direction. You cannot become a champion eating in McDonalds, going to the disco and not resting enough. You cannot become a champion having athletics like the interest n. 3 in your life. But in our society you cannot also become a champion having an obsessive maniacal interest in athletics, forgetting every other thing. An African cannot forget other things, because there are not other things. But a white people of today is a man out of the world when has a strong passion for something like running at top level. He must fight against everyone, because our society is not able to understand him. So, our runner is always under pressure.

Really, I think that is very difficult to change the current trend.

Renato,

Your reply has got me thnking about western athletes. The following are western runners that were products of the countries they represented in the past 10 years:

Vincent Rousseau (27:23, 2:07:20)

Jon Brown (27:18)

António Pinto (27:12)

Bob Kennedy (7:30, 12:58)

Mark Carroll (7:30, 13:02)

David Krummenacker (1:43.9/3:31.9 WIC)

John Maycock (3:31.8)

Steve Holman (3:31.5)

Rui Silva (3:30.0)

Rich Kenah (1:43.3)

Mark Everett (1:43.2)

Vebjørn Rodal (1:42.5 Oly Gold)

André Bucher (1:42.5)

Giacomo Leone (2:07:52)

Domingos Castro (2:07:51)

Stefano Baldini (2:07:29)

Mark Croghan (8:09)

Damian Kallabis (8:09)

Alessandro Lambruschini (8:08)

Simon Vroemen (8:06.9)

de España

Eliseo Martín (8:09)

Luis Miguel Martín (8:07)

Juan Carlos Higuero (3:31)

Andrés Díaz (3:31)

José Antonio Redolat (3:31)

Isaac Viciosa (3:30.9)

Reyes Estévez (3:30)

Fermín Cacho (3:28)

José Rios (27:22)

Fabián Roncero (27:14, 2:07:23)

Abel Antón (2:07:57)

Alejandro Gómez (2:07:54)

Francisco Javier Cortés (2:07:48)

Antoni Peña (2:07:34)

Additionally, in the past 10 years Spain has had 12 runners run under 2:10 39 times -- where ease more than 10 years ago 2:10 was never broken by a Spanish runner. Spain also had 7 men run under 13:15 and 12 men run under 28:00, all in the same time frame.

What is different about Spain that they are putting out nearly as many other compeitive male runners as all of America and Western Europe combined?

Trackhead,

Quite impressive results for Spain.

Do you have a similar record for their women?

From the IAAF All-Time Lists:

Marta Domínguez (14:48)

Julia Vaquero (14:44.9, 31:14)

From 2003:

Mayte Martínez (1:59)

Esther Desviat (2:00)

Natalia Rodríguez (2:01, 4:01)

Adoración García (2:01, 4:05, 9:08)

Marlén Estévez (2:02)

Nuria Fernández (4:03)

Eva Arias (4:08)

Zulema Fuentes-Pila (4:09)

Iris María Fuentes-Pila (4:10)

Marta Domínguez (8:55.9, 14:48)

María Cristina Petite (9:08.9, 15:29)

Rocío Ríos (15:31, 32:03)

Beatriz Santiago (15:35, 32:33)

Teresa Recio (15:36)

María Luisa Larraga (15:37)

Yesenia Centeno (31:49)

María Abel (32:20, 2:30)

Amaia Piedra (32:23)

Alessandra Aguilar (32:42)

Beatriz Ros (2:29)

María Teresa Pulido (2:31)

Faustina María (2:35)

Eva Sanz (2:37)

Maria José Pueyo (2:39)

No where near the same quality of depth of Spanish Men.

I want to tell you a story regarding the beginning of Spanish explosion.

In 1990 we had European Championships, and Italy dominated winning a lot of medals : Gold in 5000-10000 with Antibo, in steeple with Panetta, in Marathon with Bordin ; silver in 1500 with Di Napoli and in Marathon with Poli ; bronze in 10000 with Mei, in steeple with Lambruschini and in 3000m W with Roberta Brunet. At the same time, the best Spanish was Prieto (4th in 10000), with only other few finalist (Gonzalez in 1500, Albentosa in 10000, Montiel in Marathon).

Approaching to OG in Barcelona, in November of '90 a delegation of 6 coaches led by the current responsable Miguel Landa, with one doctor (Xavier Lebiarte), came to our National center in Tirrenia for speaking with me one full week about training. In one day they met also Giampaolo Lenzi (coach of Pizzolato and Bettiol), in another day Luciano Gigliotti (coach of Bordin, now of Baldini and Maria Guida). I was with them all the time.

When I explained our training, they said : "But our athletes cannot train so much, because are employers and not at full time". I answered : "If I want to buy a house costing 300.000 dollars, and I have only 30.000, the only think is to stay where I already live. It's not possible to win with so little training".

So, having Spanish Federation more money for OG, they changed their system, giving to their best athletes "bejas" (that are a salary depending on the level of the athlete) and every type of support for training in the best way possible. In short time, having also a professional assistance under the medical point of view, they could produce Cacho, then marathon runners beginning with Martin Fiz, Juzdado, Diego Garcia and Abel Anton, steeple runners like Jimenez and the Martins, and great runners of 1500m (Estevez, Redolat, Diaz, and others).

The victories of Marathon runners and their big volume of training became normal information for the ambience. So, also runners of other events had no more fright about big volume, and the general mentality about training improved. For normal people, now athletics is a sport well known, and is part of the sport culture in Spain.

At the same time, as the Italian system is based on money coming from a special lottery (Totocalcio) connected with the Leaugue of Soccer, that during the last 6 years produced very less money, all the Italian federations lost money, and were no more able to support our athletes and also the basic activity (our school doesn't work well).

Yet before, Gbr was the top Country in Athletics, because running was a type of life for Britons and an important part of education.

Now, the worst Country (Spain) is the European Kenya.

The old European Kenya (Italy) is not able to produce any runner.

The most cultural Country (Gbr) forgot all what was able to do in one full Century.

This is another demonstration that at the base of our activity there are not only genetic differences.

After 13 years, genes are the same, but mind and behavior are different, and results are the speech of what a Country is at the moment, not of what could be with another situation.

Spain is a poor example......

But a good example if you wanna show us the benefits of EPO.

Before they started training more, maybe they were trying other things instead, as you have suggested.

Which is all the more proof that such things as drugs are not effective and are only deterrents to improving performances.

The U.S. is the greatest drug use economy and performances are poor.

This is an absolute direct correlation with the drugs.

When Americans stop using and believing in drug use, and start putting in the time and effort to train including life styles, as other countries are doing, then performances will improve.

Bekele, I cannot agree with you. I can't put my hand on the fire with any athlete, as the opportunity to have some drug now are everywhere. In my e-mail I find every day 2-3 messages talking about drug and how easy is to have it. So, if somebody wants, it's very easy to buy and to use.

However, I know very well the ambience of Spanish runners, and I'm sure that the most part of them are absolutely clean. So, in a group running 13:10 - 13:15, may be that 1 or 2 athletes use something not permitted, but all the other athletes are clean.

Their mentality is different. People know what running at top level means ; organizers are able to find money because the image of athletics is good ; young boys go to the tracks and to the clubs because want to imitate their champions ; media speak about athletics giving good space on their newspapers (in Italy, practically, there are only little words on Gazzetta dello Sport, nothing on other newspapers SPECIALIZED IN SPORT (Tuttosport and Corriere dello Sport). Only soccer and motors, other sports are dead for normal people and TV.

And also about who was taken positive, like Alberto Garcia, there's something strange. Really do you think that, with a scientific apparatus like that they have, an athlete that the day before a World Champ. is NEGATIVE for EPO, can be POSITIVE after the race, when the first effects of EPO arrive after 10 days or more, because it can stimulate the production of new red cells after some day ? What is the reason because a top runner must take EPO with the risk of beeing tested, when he cannot have any advantage in the race, and after it he goes for a period of rest because the first part of the season has finished ? I don't believe that this is possible, because is too stupid and without any reason. Anyway, this is another problem.

But, believe me, the Spanish culture about running changed deeply during the last 13 years. This fact means more possibilities of recruiting, more interest, more knowledge. This fact means that spanish runners are ACTORS of this world, not SPECTATORS like the most part of American runners, that compete among them (not always) and normally are not able (may be that they have no money enough, may be that they don't want) to meet the top runners of the world. How is possible to grow and to improve, when your movement is isolated and you don't have any model among your runners ? Your models are form the past : you talk about Shorter, Rodgers, Salazar, Ryun and many other big champions that were the best in the world. But you cannot take your models from the history, because the world is changing continuously. You must take your models from the present, and you have to live the top activity like something regarding your life, not something to see like an "affair" of other people. So, the only solution is to be more joined with top activity, knowing top athletes and thinking to them like a part of your normal world, not like something of unattainable that demoralize every runner creating alibis with other people's doping for justifying their weakness. You must better know athletics and its values, and must believe more in yourselves.