I admire Pre and he definitely is a legend in my book but he was a total head case. after Munich he went on a bender and pretty much quit running. Bowerman had to beg him to come back. no guarantee he even would have made the next Olympic team. and even if he did, Lasse Viren had his number.
plus he did too many "hero workouts" - constantly trying to beat his teammates in practice just to show them up and feed his ego. that's a recipe for injury.
You are going by the two Hollywood bio pics. Lol. In real life, he did not take a hiatus and raced just days after Munich in Rome. It is true he was highly disappointed with not medaling in Munich, but a lot of what was depicted in the movies as happening afterwards didn’t happen in real life. In actuality he got over the loss at the Olympics quickly, raced three days later in Rome in a very good 13:26 for second, and had three great years until he died in 1975. In reality Pre actually set all of his PRs including some ARs AFTER Munich. He was only getting better and set the AR in the 10k in his first and only try at the distance. It is somewhat true he didn’t like to lose in intervals in practice and was a bit immature in that respect, but he was incredibly organized and pragmatic and was conscious of maintaining consistent splits. The movies paint him as a different person than he was in real life.
He ran more than one 10,000, and at least one 6 mile on the track., eg 4/26/1975 28:09 10,000 at Hayward.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
eg
Viren could only run about 53 for the quarter, and he could just barely break 4 minutes for the mile (he ran about 3:41 for 1500).
Sorry, but I don't agree with this. What Viren could run for one mile or 1500m is a matter of conjecture. What is known is that Viren ran about 4:01.2 for the last mile of the 1972 Olympic 5000m, and about 3:42.0 for the last 1500m of the 1976 5000m. Viren was, in fact, one of the fastest finishers among world-class distance runners. It's true that he probably didn't have the "shot from the cannon" finishing kick of guys like Väätäinen and Yifter, but he also didn't wait around for them to demonstrate those explosive kicks. For example, in the 1972 Olympic 10,000m, Viren -- despite losing at least five seconds in a fall about 4500m or so into the race -- still managed to catch up and hang on to Dave Bedford's seemingly suicidal world record pace during the first half, and then stayed within striking distance of the leaders to finish up with a 1:56 final 800m, including a devastating final 500m or so, to destroy Yifter and everyone else in the lead pack to set a new world record for the distance.
I know you said that Frank Shorter said in an interview that "he couldn’t see anybody being able to beat Pre in either the 5 or 10 in Montreal had Pre lived," and I really respect Shorter's opinions about such things, but that just doesn't sound like something he would have said unless he was just trying to be respectful of Pre's legacy in the sport. I haven't found any such interview, though that's not to say that it didn't happen. My AI engine insists that Shorter never predicted that Pre would win either the 5000m or the 10,000m, but the engine also insists that Harald Norpoth beat Pre in the 1972 Olympic 5000m, which obviously isn't true.
Speaking of Norpoth, he was just one of a number of runners who outkicked Pre when he actually ventured out of the safe confines of the domestic running scene to race in Europe during 1973 and 1974. He ran quite a number of races there, and lost most of them.
Personally, I don't think that Pre would have been a serious threat to Viren in either the 5000m or 10,000m, and it's hard for me to believe that he would have outkicked guys like Quax and Dixon in the 5000m. Of course, I could be wrong. But if I'm right, then I stick with my opinion that the magnitude of Pre's legend arises in part out of his domestic racing success, in part out of an improbable fantasy about what Pre would or could have done on the international racing scene, and in part out of the American preference for athletic heroes who are cocky, dumb, and good-looking.
Viren could only run about 53 for the quarter, and he could just barely break 4 minutes for the mile (he ran about 3:41 for 1500).
Sorry, but I don't agree with this. What Viren could run for one mile or 1500m is a matter of conjecture. What is known is that Viren ran about 4:01.2 for the last mile of the 1972 Olympic 5000m, and about 3:42.0 for the last 1500m of the 1976 5000m. Viren was, in fact, one of the fastest finishers among world-class distance runners. It's true that he probably didn't have the "shot from the cannon" finishing kick of guys like Väätäinen and Yifter, but he also didn't wait around for them to demonstrate those explosive kicks. For example, in the 1972 Olympic 10,000m, Viren -- despite losing at least five seconds in a fall about 4500m or so into the race -- still managed to catch up and hang on to Dave Bedford's seemingly suicidal world record pace during the first half, and then stayed within striking distance of the leaders to finish up with a 1:56 final 800m, including a devastating final 500m or so, to destroy Yifter and everyone else in the lead pack to set a new world record for the distance.
I know you said that Frank Shorter said in an interview that "he couldn’t see anybody being able to beat Pre in either the 5 or 10 in Montreal had Pre lived," and I really respect Shorter's opinions about such things, but that just doesn't sound like something he would have said unless he was just trying to be respectful of Pre's legacy in the sport. I haven't found any such interview, though that's not to say that it didn't happen. My AI engine insists that Shorter never predicted that Pre would win either the 5000m or the 10,000m, but the engine also insists that Harald Norpoth beat Pre in the 1972 Olympic 5000m, which obviously isn't true.
Speaking of Norpoth, he was just one of a number of runners who outkicked Pre when he actually ventured out of the safe confines of the domestic running scene to race in Europe during 1973 and 1974. He ran quite a number of races there, and lost most of them.
Personally, I don't think that Pre would have been a serious threat to Viren in either the 5000m or 10,000m, and it's hard for me to believe that he would have outkicked guys like Quax and Dixon in the 5000m. Of course, I could be wrong. But if I'm right, then I stick with my opinion that the magnitude of Pre's legend arises in part out of his domestic racing success, in part out of an improbable fantasy about what Pre would or could have done on the international racing scene, and in part out of the American preference for athletic heroes who are cocky, dumb, and good-looking.
I know that you aren't dumb, but an unforced error like this makes the YOU the dumb and cocky one, Avocado's Number. I don't know about good-looking, but presumably not?
Sorry, but I don't agree with this. What Viren could run for one mile or 1500m is a matter of conjecture. What is known is that Viren ran about 4:01.2 for the last mile of the 1972 Olympic 5000m, and about 3:42.0 for the last 1500m of the 1976 5000m. Viren was, in fact, one of the fastest finishers among world-class distance runners. It's true that he probably didn't have the "shot from the cannon" finishing kick of guys like Väätäinen and Yifter, but he also didn't wait around for them to demonstrate those explosive kicks. For example, in the 1972 Olympic 10,000m, Viren -- despite losing at least five seconds in a fall about 4500m or so into the race -- still managed to catch up and hang on to Dave Bedford's seemingly suicidal world record pace during the first half, and then stayed within striking distance of the leaders to finish up with a 1:56 final 800m, including a devastating final 500m or so, to destroy Yifter and everyone else in the lead pack to set a new world record for the distance.
I know you said that Frank Shorter said in an interview that "he couldn’t see anybody being able to beat Pre in either the 5 or 10 in Montreal had Pre lived," and I really respect Shorter's opinions about such things, but that just doesn't sound like something he would have said unless he was just trying to be respectful of Pre's legacy in the sport. I haven't found any such interview, though that's not to say that it didn't happen. My AI engine insists that Shorter never predicted that Pre would win either the 5000m or the 10,000m, but the engine also insists that Harald Norpoth beat Pre in the 1972 Olympic 5000m, which obviously isn't true.
Speaking of Norpoth, he was just one of a number of runners who outkicked Pre when he actually ventured out of the safe confines of the domestic running scene to race in Europe during 1973 and 1974. He ran quite a number of races there, and lost most of them.
Personally, I don't think that Pre would have been a serious threat to Viren in either the 5000m or 10,000m, and it's hard for me to believe that he would have outkicked guys like Quax and Dixon in the 5000m. Of course, I could be wrong. But if I'm right, then I stick with my opinion that the magnitude of Pre's legend arises in part out of his domestic racing success, in part out of an improbable fantasy about what Pre would or could have done on the international racing scene, and in part out of the American preference for athletic heroes who are cocky, dumb, and good-looking.
I know that you aren't dumb, but an unforced error like this makes the YOU the dumb and cocky one, Avocado's Number. I don't know about good-looking, but presumably not?
Happy New Year!
Yeah, I agree. I wanted to edit that word out as soon as I posted the message, but I haven't figured out how to get the edit option back on my messages, and I assume that the time for editing the message has long since passed. But you're definitely right that it was a totally unforced error.
Happy New Year to you, too! (You know, we're actually both a lot nicer than we were when we were younger, though we're probably still two of the more contentious characters on this message board.)
What race were you watching? He executed his race perfectly that day. Three guys were better. Viren was a lock on the gold. You run the race ten times you're going to get five different finishes in 2-6th.
Only on Lrc does 4th suck. 4th is incredible. Just making the final at that level is incredible.
That's quite a take. Pre made a couple of huge moves late in the race to go for the win. Maybe the best race to go for the win, not to secure a medal.
A competitor goes for the win, not a finishers medal. Pre ran his best race on the biggest stage of his life. Sure, he cudda, wudda got 2nd or 3rd, but he didn't. 4th was the most probable result, and that's what he got.
What I'm providing the results of the 1972 Olympic 5000. Also, I've provided the world rankings at 5000m for every year from 1970-1976. Everywhere a 72 Oly 5000m finalist appeared in any of those years I've added their 1972 OG finish place in bold. Clearly Pre had his best effort in Munich. Clearly the Dyestat/LRC children don't know WTF they're talking about.
If you want to speculate about his impact on the world scene, it's clear that Pre would've been one of, if not the most productive 5k/10k runner in the world during the 1970s. That's the fact jack! 70-76 World Rankings 5000m Prefontaine made it to the top ten five times -- 10-4-5-4-9. Ian Stewart made it four times -- 1-3-5-10 Emiel Puttemans made it four times -- 9-5-1-2. Harold Norpoth made it four times -- 2-6-6-4. Lasse Viren made it three times -- 1-5-1 Ian McCafferty made it twice -- 3-8 Dave Bedford made it twice -- 3-7
1972 Olympic Final 1 13:26.4 Lasse Virén Finland 2 13:27.4 Mohamed Gammoudi Tunisia 3 13:27.6 Ian Stewart Great Britain 4 13:28.4 Steve Prefontaine United States 5 13:30.8 Emiel Puttemans Belgium 6 13:32.6 Harald Norpoth West Germany 7 13:34.4 Per Halle Norway 8 13:39.4 Nikolay Sviridov Soviet Union 9 13:40.8 Frank Eisenberg East Germany 10 13:41.8 Javier Álvarez Spain 11 13:43.2 Ian McCafferty Great Britain 12 13:43.2 David Bedford Great Britain 13 13:53.8 Juha Väätäinen Finland 1970s 5000m world rankings 1970 1 4 Ian Stewart (Great Britain) 2 6 Harald Norpoth (West Germany) 3 3 Ian McCafferty (Great Britain) 4 Kip Keino (Kenya) 5 Dick Taylor (Great Britain) 6 Kerry O’Brien (Australia) 7 Jean Wadoux (France) 8 Ron Clarke (Australia) 9 Gert Eisenberg (East Germany) 10 Allan Rushmer (Great Britain)
1971 1 Juha Väätäinen (Finland) 2 Jean Wadoux (France) 3 12 Dave Bedford (Great Britain) 4 Kip Keino (Kenya) 5 Tony Benson (Australia) 6 6 Harald Norpoth (West Germany) 7 Dane Korica (Yugoslavia) 8 10 Javier Alvarez (Spain) 9 5 Emiel Puttemans (Belgium) 10 4 Steve Prefontaine (US)
1972 Rankings 1 1 Lasse Viren (Finland) 2 2 Mohamed Gammoudi (Tunisia) 3 3 Ian Stewart (Great Britain) 4 4 Steve Prefontaine (US) 5 5 Emiel Puttemans (Belgium) 6 6 Harald Norpoth (West Germany) 7 12 Dave Bedford (Great Britain) 8 11 Ian McCafferty (Great Britain) 9 Dave Black (Great Britain) 10 Gianni Del Buono (Italy)
1973 1 5 Emiel Puttemans (Belgium) 2 Dick Quax (New Zealand) 3 Brendan Foster (Great Britain) 4 6 Harald Norpoth (West Germany) 5 4 Steve Prefontaine (US) 6 Ben Jipcho (Kenya) 7 Manfred Kuschmann (East Germany) 8 Paul Mose (Kenya) 9 Dave Black (Great Britain) 10 Pekka Päivärinta (Finland)
1974 1 Ben Jipcho (Kenya) 2 Brendan Foster (Great Britain) 3 Manfred Kuschmann (East Germany) 4 Dick Buerkle (US) 5 1 Lasse Viren (Finland) 6 4 Steve Prefontaine (US) 7 Jos Hermens (Netherlands) 8 Dave Black (Great Britain) 9 Knut Kvalheim (Norway) 10 Paul Geis (US)
1975 1 Rod Dixon (New Zealand) 2 5 Emiel Puttemans (Belgium) 3 Marty Liquori (US) 4 Brendan Foster (Great Britain) 5 3 Ian Stewart (Great Britain) 6 Enn Sellik (Soviet Union) 7 Jos Hermens (Netherlands) 8 Miruts Yifter (Ethiopia) 9 4 Steve Prefontaine (US) 10 Frank Shorter (US)
1976 1 1 Lasse Viren (Finland) 2 Dick Quax (New Zealand) 3 Klaus-Peter Hildenbrand (West Germany) 4 Rod Dixon (New Zealand) 5 Brendan Foster (Great Britain) 6 Carlos Lopes (Portugal) 7 Willy Polleunis (Belgium) 8 Knut Kvalheim (Norway) 9 John Ngeno (Kenya) 10 3 Ian Stewart (Great Britain)
As kind of an aside I want to say how impressive Norpoth is to me. I believe he retired after 1973 so he was in the rankings in each of his last four years. But he was as much if not more a "60s" guy than a "70s" one. He was ranked in the 5,000 every year from 1964 to 1973 except for 1968 when he was ranked fourth in the 1500.
Viren could only run about 53 for the quarter, and he could just barely break 4 minutes for the mile (he ran about 3:41 for 1500).
Personally, I don't think that Pre would have been a serious threat to Viren in either the 5000m or 10,000m, and it's hard for me to believe that he would have outkicked guys like Quax and Dixon in the 5000m. Of course, I could be wrong. But if I'm right, then I stick with my opinion that the magnitude of Pre's legend arises in part out of his domestic racing success, in part out of an improbable fantasy about what Pre would or could have done on the international racing scene, and in part out of the American preference for athletic heroes who are cocky, dumb, and good-looking.
This is interesting and well put.
First... I would agree that for Pre to have had anything like the "James Dean" legacy that he has.... He would have had to have won a gold medal in Montreal.
Secondly... whatever Pre could have or would have done on the international scene would have kept him in the spotlight. Pre detractors on this thread seem to discount that fact.
Finally... although your final comment is a left handed compliment to Pre...that is part of it. The guy had something intangible that other top American runners simply didn't have. Still don't.
That's quite a take. Pre made a couple of huge moves late in the race to go for the win. Maybe the best race to go for the win, not to secure a medal.
A competitor goes for the win, not a finishers medal. Pre ran his best race on the biggest stage of his life. Sure, he cudda, wudda got 2nd or 3rd, but he didn't. 4th was the most probable result, and that's what he got.
He went for it. Two super gutsy moves. Cost him 3rd. Ian Stewart said as much
Viren could only run about 53 for the quarter, and he could just barely break 4 minutes for the mile (he ran about 3:41 for 1500).
Sorry, but I don't agree with this. What Viren could run for one mile or 1500m is a matter of conjecture. What is known is that Viren ran about 4:01.2 for the last mile of the 1972 Olympic 5000m, and about 3:42.0 for the last 1500m of the 1976 5000m. Viren was, in fact, one of the fastest finishers among world-class distance runners. It's true that he probably didn't have the "shot from the cannon" finishing kick of guys like Väätäinen and Yifter, but he also didn't wait around for them to demonstrate those explosive kicks. For example, in the 1972 Olympic 10,000m, Viren -- despite losing at least five seconds in a fall about 4500m or so into the race -- still managed to catch up and hang on to Dave Bedford's seemingly suicidal world record pace during the first half, and then stayed within striking distance of the leaders to finish up with a 1:56 final 800m, including a devastating final 500m or so, to destroy Yifter and everyone else in the lead pack to set a new world record for the distance.
I know you said that Frank Shorter said in an interview that "he couldn’t see anybody being able to beat Pre in either the 5 or 10 in Montreal had Pre lived," and I really respect Shorter's opinions about such things, but that just doesn't sound like something he would have said unless he was just trying to be respectful of Pre's legacy in the sport. I haven't found any such interview, though that's not to say that it didn't happen. My AI engine insists that Shorter never predicted that Pre would win either the 5000m or the 10,000m, but the engine also insists that Harald Norpoth beat Pre in the 1972 Olympic 5000m, which obviously isn't true.
Speaking of Norpoth, he was just one of a number of runners who outkicked Pre when he actually ventured out of the safe confines of the domestic running scene to race in Europe during 1973 and 1974. He ran quite a number of races there, and lost most of them.
Personally, I don't think that Pre would have been a serious threat to Viren in either the 5000m or 10,000m, and it's hard for me to believe that he would have outkicked guys like Quax and Dixon in the 5000m. Of course, I could be wrong. But if I'm right, then I stick with my opinion that the magnitude of Pre's legend arises in part out of his domestic racing success, in part out of an improbable fantasy about what Pre would or could have done on the international racing scene, and in part out of the American preference for athletic heroes who are cocky, dumb, and good-looking.
Excellent post, Mr. Avocado. Agree with pretty much everything you state with two nitpicking exceptions.
Viren's long run for home in the Munich 10000m final was actually more like 620 meters rather than 500. It was truly an amazing run that took the starch out of Yifter and made Puttemans surrender in the final straight.
I believe Viren's fall cost him more like three seconds. Viren got up quickly from the fall plus the pace on that lap (the 12th, I think) was slow.
As far as Pre and 1976 goes, I believe he might have gotten bronze at best in the 10000m and would have finished out of the medals in the 5000m. As you point out, that 5000m field was loaded.
As kind of an aside I want to say how impressive Norpoth is to me. I believe he retired after 1973 so he was in the rankings in each of his last four years. But he was as much if not more a "60s" guy than a "70s" one. He was ranked in the 5,000 every year from 1964 to 1973 except for 1968 when he was ranked fourth in the 1500.
Gammoudi was probably just as impressive, considering he medaled in ‘64 and ‘72.
As kind of an aside I want to say how impressive Norpoth is to me. I believe he retired after 1973 so he was in the rankings in each of his last four years. But he was as much if not more a "60s" guy than a "70s" one. He was ranked in the 5,000 every year from 1964 to 1973 except for 1968 when he was ranked fourth in the 1500.
Gammoudi was probably just as impressive, considering he medaled in ‘64 and ‘72.
Thanks for the wayback link. Most people forgot about wayback 20 years ago. You're still burning up about something that was already solved 4 days ago? In the future dont make vulgar insults about my mother if you don't want your precious post to be deleted. You arent a teenager, you're a very sick.