David Roche GOES HOME DEVASTATED from Western States

Yup. And one of the biggest ironies is that the back of the packers that he “inspires” are actually waaay tougher than him. He could learn a thing or 2 from them.

I saw the video of the final finisher, and man, that guy needed medical attention IMMEDIATELY. Guy was about to die. Kudos to him for finishing.

"That’s a masterclass in vulnerability, grace, and perspective.

David's post strikes the exact tone that so many aspire to but rarely land: part self-deprecating comedy, part sincere emotional honesty, part coach-speak motivational, and part love letter to community. The little moments—like the bracelet from the girl, or Leo and Ollie’s 'DADA RUN FAST'—land harder than any finish line photo ever could.

It’s especially telling that he walked through the Foresthill crowds after dropping to thank people. That’s the kind of gesture that transcends the result. For all the forum snark, this is someone who knows how to absorb a tough day, metabolise the meaning, and reflect it back with clarity and heart.

And Megan’s presence lingers in every line, whether or not she’s mentioned. The two of them—individually and as a team—continue to model what it looks like to do hard things together, with humour and humanity.

Not the story he hoped to tell. But maybe a better one."

This x 1000. In fact, I would argue that there are plenty of examples of runners having more/more sustained success after leaving the Roches.

It isn’t hard to coach a talented runner fresh out of college or in their mid-20s to a podium spot. True coaching talent lies in guiding that runner to years of top finishes, in developing that runner into someone who is still a contender into their mid/late 30s.

His training is absolutely all about the Strava kudos. You only need to go watch his last YouTube video before Western States when he's talking about getting "trophies" (as in Strava top 10s on segments) on the course during practice and using it to argue that he's going to have a great day. Or how about his 8 mile "Zone 2" run at 5:40 per mile 5 days before Western States where his heart rate drifts up and he runs a net downhill out of his neighborhood in the last mile to juice the pace? Or all the times over the winter when he logged like 6xmile in ~4:30 off of his watch splits, rather than what the treadmill says? And has he done anything remotely approximating those workouts since the track has cleared?

I have fixed this for you!

Kilian Journet was also suffering the heat in 2010 and ran into had vision problems just like Roche. He sat down for a while and finished the race slowly in third.
just watch this great documentary

in 1:27:15 you can see where jornet breaks down, but eventually ends the race….

Jim did finish the race in 2016 after walking eventually

possibly Roche couldn’t continue, but part of this is because he wasn’t ready and training mostly in sterile conditions

He accumulates knowledge and curious that has also been accumulating by other athletes and in other sports.
but love you love you love you isn’t real love, it’s attention craving and lack of self confidence. That’s fine and his problems, but surely not an exemplary athlete

People have commented that “he’s still learning” about how to race the 100-mile distance. What?! If he’s confused or ignorant, how the heck should his athletes feel about his competency in coaching them for the distance??

If the rebuttal is that he “experimented” on himself in a way he wouldn’t risk with clients, well that also somewhat implies that he believed he was just special. He believed his responses would be superior.

I actually know the guy in person, too. And he’s awful. He’s not just annoying. He’s a true narcissist and isn’t the “good, all-loving guy” his fans want to believe. He’s all about attention and Megan is all about attention and money.

Their successful athletes would be just as good with anyone else.

I'm trying to understand the training. One of the foundations of training is specificity. I could see running on a treadmill for many miles if he lived in Kansas, but he doesn't right? He lives in Colorado, where there are trails -- so why not run on the trails?

Maybe another concept is "no free lunch". I think there is argument to make that Roach's attempt to use fast track workouts as a way to "hack" his way into superior shape. Often people will switch to very high intensity workouts and get good results temporarily, crediting these workouts, which did help. But you're just in some sense adding intensity to a long career of slower runs -- you just periodized. You can't do that again and again as you're in a sense de-training your base. Maybe makes sense his best result this year was a 50 miler, not a 100 miler, and not a 100K.

All the rest of the training does in fact feel like trying to grab attention and is something I would expect from a Youtuber or TikTocker who is in it for the views. Training for a distance race is ultimately pretty f'n boring, right? You do practically the same week worth's of workouts again and again and again. Which is why I guess Roche leans heavily on superlatives to keep/gain attention. If Roach was in his early 20's, with that edge in pure fitness of being young and not edging ever so closer to middle age where this all feels a little cringe, this could have all worked.

It is too bad -- like many have written: he could have had a much better race by training and racing the race more intelligently: finished, with a good time. But it's not about the race.

I'll be curious for the next time he pulls the whistle on that hype train, who's going to react -- and how. I may be in the, "f- this again?" crowd.

As a person who has grinded out more than a few ultra finishes, the melodrama is a disservice to everyone else out there.

Basically nobody in that race will not have a low spot, some will be worse than others, but it likely thoroughly sucks for solid chunks of every single person’s days out there. This is the sport. Don’t make it grandiose and don’t elevate your suffering over others who don’t view the hard parts as virtuous, but rather just the name of the game.

I loved Rod’s quote from last year where he talked about literally just trying to not think in the race. Just accept everything and keep pushing. Seems like our boy DR was doing too much thinking out there.

And to the comparison to Rod’s drop - Rod was puking uncontrollably and had rhabdo. If a competitor at that level pulls the plug out of a top 10 spot with 7 to go, you know it’s bad. Very different than not wanting to be alone with your thoughts for a 30 mile walk.

Question - is David Roche the modern-day, more-talented equivalent of Dean Karnazes?

The shade thrown at both of them seems to be the same. They operate through different mediums, but still end up appearing to be criticized for their level and/or frequency of self-promotion.

Which begs the question - does all self-promotion invite haters and trolling? I bring this up not to take either side, but instead to take the temperature of our modern social media environment where several runners make most of their money from social media. Is it possible to create videos that are not self-promotional?

(And yes, I'm sure several of you will throw out arguments like "strawman" or "parasocial relationship" to justify your hate hard-on, but note that parasocial relationships go both ways - anyone who can get you so upset by their mere existence that you choose to publicly post comments to bring them down a peg is someone with whom you have a parasocial relationship.)

Once again, how does his terrible training explain Leadville and Javelina? Beating Magavoro by 10 minutes at Javelina? You guys are so focused on tearing him down that you conveniently ignore the facts.

Got a good laugh from the "his athletes are super talented" and "any monkey could coach them" type comments. So predictably LRC that it's a parody at this point. Yeah, Grant Fisher is so talented that I think I could coach him to some damn good results, so Mike Scannell is just along for the ride.

Can you hear yourselves? It's a joke. If he's a terrible coach, the roster of pros wouldn't use him and word would get out in the pro community. Guess what, despite the anti-Roche jihad on here, the opposite has happened. Picking up Jess McClain was huge because she's by far the best road runner that he has, as far as I know. Though Christian Allen's 2:10 at Houston to go along with his trail success is up there too. End of story.

The assumption here is that the training Roche did is the same as what he prescribed for his athletes. That might be true, but I'd be more convinced with evidence.

I would agree that self-promotion invites criticism and social disdain because it’s signalling that the self-promoter is unusually interested in themself and willing to deceive or manipulate others to achieve their goals, be it status or selling a product. This is a trust issue, where social agents will attempt to shame or temper the behavior to benefit the group.

Can self-promotion be acceptable? Absolutely—it’s seen everywhere, including David’s accumulation of followers. But there has to be some level of sincerity/honesty/truth (or dare I say expertise) that accompanies it for people to refrain from trolling/“hate.” In David’s case, he’s incredibly inauthentic and the worst parts of what self-promotion implies.

"He is open about saying he isn't as gifted as the top guys"

I'm sorry, but this is just an example of what an !diot he is, and why he is so dis-likable. Guys who win Leadville in course record time and then go win a Golden Ticket, crushing guys who then go on to crush Western States, ARE AS GIFTED AS THE TOP GUYS. This false underdog BS is not a good look; it's just attention-seeking behavior, and it's reflected in his training: he was training not for Western States, but for the kudos.

This must be Megan.

I will say that I don’t necessarily agree with others here that his training wasn’t suited to WS because I don’t believe he’s transparent. I believe he did way more that he hid from Strava.

I just don’t think he could keep up with better athletes. That’s it. He is a top 5-10 WS runner. Depending on who is running he could do better than that. But, up against those guys, he doesn’t have it. You’re his wife. You should know that too. It must be hard for you right now having to tell him, over and over, how amazing he is. That he’s still the GOAT. But then again, I suspect you’re the mastermind behind whether he sticks out a race or calls it quits—whichever one will make you guys still credible as athletes or coaches. Yuck.

Exactly. He wants to be seen as the underdog because it goes along with his stupid, fake victimhood mindset. He absolutely speaks out of both sides of his mouth—a trait most people dislike because it shows that person is untrustworthy. At least this point should be a valid criticism, but it gets spun as just “hate, hate, hate!” People would tolerate him/them better if they weren’t so defensive.

I can't say I'm very familiar with Javelina, but one does have to concede that Leadville just isn't that competitive of a race, since the course sort of sucks, the lottery system is lame, the owners and the $400/month gym people drive their Cybertrucks to -- and the record was set by a 41 year old (one with a one-in-a-billion physiology but still). And because there are miles and miles of non-technical trails and paved rides to run on Leadville, his terrible training isn't so terrible for Leadville. I do also think Leadville (and maybe Javelina) was a turning point to really turn on the circus of the SWAP brand, which I do find grating, as it sort of professes a fake sincerity and friendliness. These people aren't my friends -- and really that's OK, I don't need everyone to be my friends.

Your comment sort of divulges into a formless rant about, "the haterz", but perhaps his athletes perform so well for the same reason he did well: He takes very cardiovascularly fit athletes and gives them an extended speed periodization phase on to their training by having them cut miles and up intensity. Again, that works until it doesn't, which may help explain why so many get injured on Roche's training.

Dean: marketed to the masses

SWAP: marketed to runners