For long distance. She's nowhere close to Mary Cain short distance.
Get back to me when she finishes 9th at Worlds this year.
The problem with Hedengren is she's good at the event where Americans have NEVER medalled. - women's 5000.
Sorry I'm just going to keep emphasizing that this is such a crazy thing to want to say after watching this happen. When Mary Cain was running those times, I clearly remember you were bashing her the same way too.
It's an amazing accomplishment! It's an amazing season! Even if she doesn't run a single step again, she still set the bar high.
I would implore you to question why you are so quick to diminish young girls.
As a male who has never broken 18:00 for 5K, I don't feel like Hedengren is a threat to my ego. The only males crying are those who can break 16 but not 15.
For long distance. She's nowhere close to Mary Cain short distance.
Get back to me when she finishes 9th at Worlds this year.
The problem with Hedengren is she's good at the event where Americans have NEVER medalled. - women's 5000.
As always, it comes down to your criteria. I'm going with Hedengren because she is so far beyond any other high schooler ever, in an event that normally requires years of aerobic development to master. Cain was obviously more competitive on the world stage at this point in her career, but even setting aside that it was a far weaker era, there's plenty of precedent for high schoolers being world class at middle distances.
Most male to female points tables / equivalencies have this as a 13:07ish 5k. The top high school boys in the US are still 13:30s guys. Crazy to think of a US boy running sub 13:10 in HS
The updated World Athletics scoring table equates her time to a 13:11 for males. But if we look at proximity to the world record, Daniel Simmons' 13:25 high school record is slightly ahead. Compared to the men's world record, Simmons' HS record is 50.5 seconds slower, which is 6.3%. Compared to the women's world record, Hedengren's HS record is 57.72 slower, which is 6.4%. Those percentages are close enough that I think we can say they are on the same level.
Another way of looking at it: Last year Simmons' time was the 233rd fastest in the world. Hedengren's 14:57.93 would have been the 67th fastest time in the world in 2024. The women have more outliers and spread in their results, so Jane's performance ranks higher even if they are the same distance away from the world record.
Her birthday is September 23, 2006. She's not overaged for her grade at all. She's older than probalby most but virtally everyone turns 18 during their senior year of HS just like she did.
I started college at 19.
I turned 18 the summer after high school. I had a couple friends with fall birthdays and that wasn’t as fun for them in university and Canadian drinking laws in our province (18). Turning 19 in September to me is…wild.
All the same, insane talent and performance. Props to her. Excited to see what she’ll do next.
Well, people are born every month of the year, so some people are either a bit old or a bit young compared to most in their grade. If you turned 18 during the summer after high school that means you were among the youngest. Typically Aug/Sept birthday is around the cutoff where parents decide if they want their kid to be one of the youngest or oldest in their grade.
In HS I had two teammates with the exact same birthday in late September. One was in my grade, one was a grade below.
So her turning 18 in September just means she is among the older kids in her grade, but by no means is it not normal or 'wild'. She's just at the older end of the normal range. The vast majority of high schoolers are 18 by the time they graduate considering the cutoff is typically around Aug/Sept. Which is why most of the time when seniors are breaking records they are doing it at 18 years old, because most people are 18 during their final HS outdoor track season.
This is just absolutely shocking! She gets dramatically better as the distance gets longer. We almost never see this from young runners who haven't had time to build a massive base over the course of 5-10 years.
Kara Goucher set off the modern US running boom in 2007 with her silver at Worlds. Kara Goucher's PR is 14:55. 14:57 from a high schooler is just otherworldly!
Not shocking at all. Do you follow the sport? You don't know what she just ran for 2 miles, alone? It's called talent combined with hard work.
P.s. Since you brought it up----no, Kara didn't set off the modern US running boom in 2007. Is this Adam or Kara?
Kara was 8th a year later in the Olympics with a PR! She was beaten by a fellow American who got the silver and ran 30 seconds faster than her.
The updated World Athletics scoring table equates her time to a 13:11 for males. But if we look at proximity to the world record, Daniel Simmons' 13:25 high school record is slightly ahead. Compared to the men's world record, Simmons' HS record is 50.5 seconds slower, which is 6.3%. Compared to the women's world record, Hedengren's HS record is 57.72 slower, which is 6.4%. Those percentages are close enough that I think we can say they are on the same level.
Another way of looking at it: Last year Simmons' time was the 233rd fastest in the world. Hedengren's 14:57.93 would have been the 67th fastest time in the world in 2024. The women have more outliers and spread in their results, so Jane's performance ranks higher even if they are the same distance away from the world record.
you can say it a million different ways. comparatively speaking, there is very little depth in high level women's running.
What we have here are two INCREDIBLE American high school runners, who both need to level up 3 more times before they are world medal threats.
As a male who has never broken 18:00 for 5K, I don't feel like Hedengren is a threat to my ego. The only males crying are those who can break 16 but not 15.
It didn’t already bother them that there are people that run sub-13 and a HSer that ran 13:25?
As a male who has never broken 18:00 for 5K, I don't feel like Hedengren is a threat to my ego. The only males crying are those who can break 16 but not 15.
It didn’t already bother them that there are people that run sub-13 and a HSer that ran 13:25?
I'm pretty sure it hurts them differently because a girl did sub 15 and they can't.
The updated World Athletics scoring table equates her time to a 13:11 for males. But if we look at proximity to the world record, Daniel Simmons' 13:25 high school record is slightly ahead. Compared to the men's world record, Simmons' HS record is 50.5 seconds slower, which is 6.3%. Compared to the women's world record, Hedengren's HS record is 57.72 slower, which is 6.4%. Those percentages are close enough that I think we can say they are on the same level.
Another way of looking at it: Last year Simmons' time was the 233rd fastest in the world. Hedengren's 14:57.93 would have been the 67th fastest time in the world in 2024. The women have more outliers and spread in their results, so Jane's performance ranks higher even if they are the same distance away from the world record.
Thank you. Yes, that broader context is a helpful way of looking at it, as is the perspective shared by "WashedAF":
WashedAF wrote:
A good point, but I don't think that tells the whole story. The top women are way, way ahead of everyone else, while the men's side is more crowded. Eleven other men are at or within 10 seconds of the 12:35 WR (6 under 12:40), while only 3 other women are within 10 seconds of 14:00 (nobody else under 14:05). Hedengren may be slightly farther from the WR, but she's closer to both the top 10 and the American record. Also #281 all-time vs. Simmons #1328. Just ridiculous, really. And of course they're both going to the same school.
Those standings explain why Simmons' time is valued at 1117 points on the World Athletics scoring table, whereas Hedengren's record is worth 1167 points. So, in that sense, Hedengren's performance is definitely better.
Personally, I prefer looking at the top because that's where I want our American women to be, as the men were at last year's Olympics. If Hedengren can stay healthy and keep progressing, it looks like she may have the talent to get there too!
Tall, thin, impressive endurance and fast. If you were going to build a mid-distance runner from the ground up, it would look like Jane. Still, didn't see this coming with that 9:30 something two miler. All my early 80's pr's are no longer "women's" world records although I did have Greta Waitz on my tail one year in a 15k. At this rate, my times won't hold up even against high school girls records in another decade. Clearly a new era in sports and I no longer tell people I use to be fast. Wow Jane!
Tall, thin, impressive endurance and fast. If you were going to build a mid-distance runner from the ground up, it would look like Jane. Still, didn't see this coming with that 9:30 something two miler. All my early 80's pr's are no longer "women's" world records although I did have Greta Waitz on my tail one year in a 15k. At this rate, my times won't hold up even against high school girls records in another decade. Clearly a new era in sports and I no longer tell people I use to be fast. Wow Jane!
I was able to watch her 2024 NXN win in person and the conditions out there were brutal - I slipped twice and fell, and I watched a young female athlete slip in the post-race area and break her leg. Jane seemed like she had a force field around her feet that let her glide above the mud and slippery grass and easily broke the course record . It's the most impressive amateur running performance I've seen in person - she seems to have all the keys to success, both physically and mentally.
As I said the other day ,Hedengren is the best I've ever seen. Cain a close second.
I'm from NYS and saw a fair amount of Cain and Tuohy; both extraordinary. Cain had incredible range down to 1:59pt and could go all the way to 2miles. Hedengren covers mile thru XC like no one else; even better than Tuohy who was/is a similar type.
Going forward and assuming she stays healthy, I expect Hedengren will enjoy a better career than the other two. Probably not the 1500m runner Cain was (she was truly special) but better across the board. Hedengren makes it look easy.