There's somewhere between 50 and 100 trans girls competing in high school out of 300,000 school-aged students that identify as transgender.
That means at least 99.97% already avoid competing in
Ok so that shows that most trans people do just fine outside of sports. Shouldn't be a big issue then....
Not really. This kid did theater and art club in high school. I don't think she participated in any organized sports, although she liked playing pickup soccer with her sisters. She suffered from brutal abuse by her school board. (Judging from the applause she got, looks like many students and parents agree with her.)
But NCAA sports are just one part of the overall picture. NCAA sports are the smallest and least important part of the picture too. Because the numbers and percentage of students in the US who participate in NCAA sports in college are just a fraction of the numbers and percentage of students who participate in school sports in the US overall. Most students who participate in school sports in the USA do so in HS, MS and LS.
You are the one who brought up the fact that most college students do not participate in varsity sports, regardless of gender.
This is after another poster pointed out that trans girls in high school participate in school at an extremely low rate. Their participation rate is well under 1%, compared to 30+% for cis girls.
But when I made that post, I was discussing and sharing information about the percentages of students in the USA who participate in college sports and in high school sports both.Whereas some posters on this thread keep trying to narrow the topic down to just one or the other.
(And you in particular keep trying to switch the subject to other matters entirely, LOL. I see you've now brought up an example of a male student with a trans gender identity who participated in drama/theater arts at school. Then in the next breath you've brought up gay men who didn't have the legal right to marry other men in the past before marriage equality was achieved in most Western countries - in an attempt to make it seem as though not allowing males to use identity claims to muscle in on female school sports is akin to depriving gay men, lesbians and bisexuals of the right to marry someone of the same sex.)
But back to the points you raised: in that post of mine, I even made a point of mentioning MS and LS sports too so that they would not be overlooked. Although I said at the time that I didn't have any figures about participation in LS and MS school sports.
But at any rate, when I made that post, I wasn't addressing the other guy's claim that male students who say they have a trans gender identity particpate in school sports at low rates. I was addressing - and challenging - his unsubstantiated claim that "more than 50% of non-trans [sic] students participate in sports."
But since you've now repeated the other guy's claim, only in more extreme terms, and you've done so without any substantiation, you've really got my attention and piqued my curiousity. So I've gotta ask:
What's your source for the claim that male high school students in the US whom you describe as "trans girls" participate in school sports "at an extremely low rate... well under 1%"? I really want to know where you got that figure from.
If it were really the case that "well under 1%" of male high school students in the USA you would describe as "trans girls" participate in school sports, then the numbers of male students with trans gender identities attending US high schools in recent years must be a whole lot larger than anyone realizes.
In my state and the other New England states alone, at least or possibly more than a dozen male students with trans gender identities have appeared in news stories and social media since 2018 because they've done one, severl or all of the following: 1) competed and cleaned up in girls' high school sports; 2) filed lawsuits claiming it's unlawful to bar them from girls' high school sports; 3) testified in legislatures against excluding males from girls' school sports; 4) given interviews to media outlets in which they've said the only reason they perform better in sports than the female students they've trounced is that they work and train harder, they're more dedicated and driven, and they've been doing sports longer and thus they've had more time to develop their skills and the kind of attitude it takes to win.
If these dozen or so students really do represent an infinitesimally tiny proportion - "well under 1%" - of so-called "trans girls" who've attended high school in New England during the same time period, that would mean thousands of male students with trans gender identities have gone through New England high schools in recent years - and they all done so "in stealth" and under the radar so that others haven't noticed and neither parents nor the general public have a clue.
This post was edited 15 minutes after it was posted.
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No one gets everything they want in life, especially not in spor
That's their personal choice. No one is stopping them from participating in the sex-based categories that they qualify for.
This is like saying gay men always had the right to marry women. (And many of them did.)
No it isn't. Sex and Gender are different. Sports based categories are based on sex, not gender. It's not making them dress or be different than who they are, they are free to express their gender however they want, it's not telling them not to be trans. There is nothing wrong with being trans. And it is not possible to change your sex, so if they want to play, they have to be in the sex based category. This is not political, I am neither D or R, (though have usually voted D). There would be a lot less distress for trans people if they acknowledged their biological reality and stop claiming that they have actually transformed their sex into something else. Wanting to be something and wanting to appear as something, is very different from actually being that thing. Transwomen are a type of men, not a type of women. There are transwomen who agree with me, including Blaire White, Nicole Powers and Alexis Blake and transmen including Buck Angel, Marcus Dib who acknowledge they are female. Objective reality is important, and sports shouldn't be political, or used as a way to affirm someone's gender, that's not the point of sports at all.
In my state and the other New England states alone, at least or possibly more than a dozen male students with trans gender identities have appeared in news stories and social media since 2018 because they've done one, severl or all of the following: 1) competed and cleaned up in girls' high school sports; 2) filed lawsuits claiming it's unlawful to bar them from girls' high school sports; 3) testified in legislatures against excluding males from girls' school sports; 4) given interviews to media outlets in which they've said the only reason they perform better in sports than the female students they've trounced is that they work and train harder, they're more dedicated and driven, and they've been doing sports longer and thus they've had more time to develop their skills and the kind of attitude it takes to win.
A dozen out of how many students in all New England states?
If that's 1% of all trans girls in New England states, that's 1200 trans girls in total in all New England states. Do you think 1200 is more than your expected?
Massachusetts alone has more than 400,000 students in grades 7-12. If 0.5% are trans girls, that's 2,000. If 1% of trans girls participate in sports, that's 20. In one state alone. Add the numbers in all other NE states.
This is like saying gay men always had the right to marry women. (And many of them did.)
No it isn't. Sex and Gender are different. Sports based categories are based on sex, not gender. It's not making them dress or be different than who they are, they are free to express their gender however they want, it's not telling them not to be trans. There is nothing wrong with being trans. And it is not possible to change your sex, so if they want to play, they have to be in the sex based category. This is not political, I am neither D or R, (though have usually voted D). There would be a lot less distress for trans people if they acknowledged their biological reality and stop claiming that they have actually transformed their sex into something else. Wanting to be something and wanting to appear as something, is very different from actually being that thing. Transwomen are a type of men, not a type of women. There are transwomen who agree with me, including Blaire White, Nicole Powers and Alexis Blake and transmen including Buck Angel, Marcus Dib who acknowledge they are female. Objective reality is important, and sports shouldn't be political, or used as a way to affirm someone's gender, that's not the point of sports at all.
It is the same. Gay men always had the right to marry women, and many chose to do so, just like there are trans women who have decided to compete as men.
That does not mean it is a meaningful right for every trans woman / girl to exercise. For many, it is a "right" that only exists on paper. They would rather not play any sports, just like many gay men chose not to marry anyone.
If you think trans women should not compete with women in sports, that's fine. I respect that opinion. But you are asking a small group of people to give up activities that are meaningful to others, and to themselves. If sports are not meaningful to anyone, then we wouldn't worry about cis girls losing competitions to trans girls. If they are meaningful to cis girls, then they should also be meaningful to trans girls. Their rights may have to be restricted or even denied for the greater good of the society, but that does not mean we should pretend we are not taking anything away from them.
This thread is about a bill recently passed by the US House of Representatives that's specifically about schools sports in the US conducted by/through educational insitutions that are subject to Title IX because they receive federal funds.
But now you've linked to a document by the Sports & Fitness Indusry Association, a trade group formerly called the Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association, which reports on information gleaned from anonymous online surveys of "people ages 6 and older" about a different topic altogether:
"youth ages 6-17 regularly playing team sports" and the "% of youth ages 6-17 who played on a sports team or took lessons (2020 and 2021)"
The "youth sports" in the SFIA report are very broadly defined and include lots of sports activities that go on outside the educational context and have nothing whatseover to do with school sports. Such as:
- competitive team sports done through an array of community orgs, clubs, civic groups, religion-affiliated groups, sports facilities and rec centers such as country clubs, Little League YMCA, CYO, AYH, Swim USA, USA Volleyball, local pools, tennis courts, golf courses, etc.
- casual team sports done for purely for recreation, fitness, fun, socializing and chilcare purposes like the Saturday bowling teams I was on when I was a kid, and the laid-back soccer, basketball, sailing, tennis, Parkour, flag football teams my own kids were on during weekends and summer vacations more recently.
- sports lessons taken in the past 12 months, which could be one-off ski, snowboard or skating lessons whilst on winter break, or a couple of group lessons in tennis, swimming, diving, sailing, archery, golf, badminton, tumbling, jazzercize, etc. whilst at summer day or sleepaway camp.
Sports and sports activities that youth ages 6-17 take part in outside of school and unrelated to school programs wouldn't be affected by the Congressional bill amending Title IX that this thread is about.
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No one gets everything they want in life, especially not in spor
It is the same. Gay men always had the right to marry women, and many chose to do so, just like there are trans women who have decided to compete as men.
That does not mean it is a meaningful right for every trans woman / girl to exercise. For many, it is a "right" that only exists on paper. They would rather not play any sports, just like many gay men chose not to marry anyone.
If you think trans women should not compete with women in sports, that's fine. I respect that opinion. But you are asking a small group of people to give up activities that are meaningful to others, and to themselves. If sports are not meaningful to anyone, then we wouldn't worry about cis girls losing competitions to trans girls. If they are meaningful to cis girls, then they should also be meaningful to trans girls. Their rights may have to be restricted or even denied for the greater good of the society, but that does not mean we should pretend we are not taking anything away from them.
Your assertion here is a false equivalency. Marrying someone is completely different than sporting events, you cannot compare the two, one has to do with sexuality, and one has to do with what you want to look like and the clothes you wear. Unless you believe that it is actually possible to change your sex, do you? Transwomen are not male anymore?
If anyone can be a woman just by declaring they are a woman, then that renders the word and category of "woman", meaningless. If this is not the case, how do you define what a woman is?
Sports decide categories to make it as even a playing field as possible. Do you think sports shouldn't make any categories at all?
Why are there separate categories for women and men? Do you think they should still exist? If so, who fits in what category? And what criteria are you using to decide who is a woman, and who is a man (again, if it is just self declaration, then those words are meaningless).
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No one gets everything they want in life, especially not in spor
I'm a lawyer and while constitutional law isn't my specialty, I have been following this issue. Like it or not,laws based on gender (not biological sex) are subject to constitutional intermediate scrutiny, also called heightened scrutiny under which the government must provide an exceedingly persuasive justification for its actions. Conservative federal district and appeals courts might rule in favor of government trans restrictions and liberal courts against it; both have occurred. So this Congressionallaw may or may not survive judges' scrutiny. I think the law is right to make clear that biological sex must prevail over gender identity to ensure fair play and safety in order to preserve women's sports. As it now exists, Title IX bars discrimination based on sex. At the time of adoption, there wasn't any recognized distinction between biological sex or gender; they were one and the same. However, before puberty, there's no need to exclude anyone. World Rugby was an early adopter to tackle (intentional bad pun) this issue by convening a group of experts. I don't think they determined a cutoff age, but it's reasonable to assume they could have done so based on the science. In order to not exclude post-pubescent trans women, let them compete on mixed teams after puberty where safety is not an issue. For example, Our sport has the mixed 4 X 400, cycling and swimming could do something similar. Tennis and volleyball come to mind also.
Total hypocrites. The lib feminists constantly crying about all the unfair advantages men have over women at work, salary, opportunities yet it’s radio silence when it comes to them taking advantage of women in sports. All but two Dems votes AGAINST this act. Disgusting!
This thread is about a bill recently passed by the US House of Representatives that's specifically about schools sports in the US conducted by/through educational insitutions that are subject to Title IX because they receive federal funds.
Then why don't you post data on high school and middle school students athletes to show that allowing trans girls into girls sports reduced the participation by cis girls.
Well, some people are more concerned about billionaires running our country, global warming, protecting social security, etc. etc.
So that logic means its ok not to pass an act to provides fairness for women in sports? Billionaires have always run this country - where have you been?. And it takes more than the US to protect the world against global warming. Maybe we should have a chat with China - the biggest polluter. And don't worry Social Security is being protected. Unfortunately its people like you that think our girls and young women should be denied playing sports fair and square and winning championships. Look in the mirror.
1) competed and cleaned up in girls' high school sports; 2) filed lawsuits claiming it's unlawful to bar them from girls' high school sports; 3) testified in legislatures against excluding males from girls' school sports; 4) given interviews to media outlets in which they've said the only reason they perform better in sports than the female students they've trounced is that they work and train harder, they're more dedicated and driven, and they've been doing sports longer and thus they've had more time to develop their skills and the kind of attitude it takes to win.
I’m not aware of even one HS transgender athlete in California, that has done any of those things.
Total hypocrites. The lib feminists constantly crying about all the unfair advantages men have over women at work, salary, opportunities yet it’s radio silence when it comes to them taking advantage of women in sports. All but two Dems votes AGAINST this act. Disgusting!
Not just hypocrisy, totally lost any common sense. I asked my ultra left wing Miss Big Time feminist MIL about this men in womens sports situation and why feminists weren't making a stink and she couldn't answer me...just hemmed and hawed. Because deep down they know it falls in line with their agenda, yet because there's a woke component to it aka transgender, they're too scared to touch it. Thank God common sense prevailed today.
Your assertion here is a false equivalency. Marrying someone is completely different than sporting events, you cannot compare the two, one has to do with sexuality, and one has to do with what you want to look like and the clothes you wear. Unless you believe that it is actually possible to change your sex, do you? Transwomen are not male anymore?
If anyone can be a woman just by declaring they are a woman, then that renders the word and category of "woman", meaningless. If this is not the case, how do you define what a woman is?
Sports decide categories to make it as even a playing field as possible. Do you think sports shouldn't make any categories at all?
Why are there separate categories for women and men? Do you think they should still exist? If so, who fits in what category? And what criteria are you using to decide who is a woman, and who is a man (again, if it is just self declaration, then those words are meaningless).
World Aquatics have already figured this out. We created separate categories because men and women have different physiology related to athletic performance. It's not because we have different reproductive organs. People swim with their arms and legs, and not with their gonads.
1. If you never experienced male puberty because of androgen insensitivity, you are allowed to compete as women.
2. If you had suppressed male puberty before age 12 or Tanner Stage 2, and maintained your testosterone level within normal female range, you are allowed to compete as women.
If people in #1 are allowed to compete as women, why can't people in #2 also compete as women? The latter might have some advantage in competition, but so do the former. (Their training not interrupted by periods is an advantage by itself.)
Also I am not asking them to give up anything, they are choosing not to participate because they do not want to be in either a male or coed team.....
In post #141 on page 8, you wrote:
"If trans girls and women want to "fly under the radar" and not be outed as males, then they should not be competing in female sports."
So you ARE asking them to give up sports. You get outed immediately if you try out for a boys' team. If you happen to make the team, then the whole school will know that you are trans. People from other schools in your district will know that you are trans. That's sounds like a disaster.
