There’s a very fundamental misunderstanding of basic physics in this thread. Rather than realize they should hit the books, conspiracy types assume the world MUST conform to their layperson understand - and thus things must be fraudulent.
Why can't you ever admit that goverments have a long history of telling lies. Can't you admit that without name calling which many others on this thread have resorted to.
The issue is valid for debate. You can agree or disagree. I think that back in those times our goverment was so obsessed with the USSR they were capable of almost anything. And many people are so naive that they'll believe anything if you give them a explanation.
I don't belive Oswald killed Kennedy and I do believe our gorverment covered it up at the very least. And it's a certainty that the moon thing was staged.
It would be easier to stage it than to actually land on it. Maybe the fact that we haven' been back there is very telling. Is our government afraid to prove that we don't have the ability even now to pull it off?
I also find it very interesting that the Wernher Von Braun who led the development of the Saturn V rocket had Psalms 19:1 posted on his gravestone:
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork."
Nothing gets past the firmament and he knew it. Interesting breadcrumb for the rest of us....
In addition to being a self appointed "renowned virologist", the dead gorilla is also an expert on astro physics. I would expect nothing less after the prolific rafts of covid nonsense.
Besides there is tons of evidence that varifies the Apollo landings happened. Moon rocks, moon dust on space suits, photos, eyewitnesses, laser reflectors on the moon placed by the astronauts, pictures of the landing sites decades later from the LRO and other countries moon probes. So many engineers, geologists, astronomers, etc., etc. all lying about it then and now? No way!
The existence of human made things on the moon doesn't prove humans themselves were ever there. The Soviets had already crashed a probe on the moon before 1960, soft-landed a probe in 1966, and brought back material with probes in 1970.
It is easy for a federal agency to employ tens of thousands of people on a project and still keep secrets. They are compartmentalized, each given clearance only to information they need to know for their job. An engineer on the stage 1 booster has no direct knowledge of what the supposed landing vehicle will do, if anything.
That's especially true when the agency works hand in hand with the military and intelligence agencies, as NASA effectively does. Spy satellites, nuclear missile forces, their operations are riddled with top secrecy, with much still classified today. The same sort of people who have somehow kept the contents of Area 51 secret, even though there are probably thousands of them, at least.
That's why moon-doubt threads are a useful exercise. They always draw out the comments about "oh no, the government could never keep a secret like that, too big." It can and it does, don't be ridiculous.
There’s a very fundamental misunderstanding of basic physics in this thread. Rather than realize they should hit the books, conspiracy types assume the world MUST conform to their layperson understand - and thus things must be fraudulent.
Why can't you ever admit that goverments have a long history of telling lies. Can't you admit that without name calling which many others on this thread have resorted to.
The issue is valid for debate. You can agree or disagree. I think that back in those times our goverment was so obsessed with the USSR they were capable of almost anything. And many people are so naive that they'll believe anything if you give them a explanation.
I don't belive Oswald killed Kennedy and I do believe our gorverment covered it up at the very least. And it's a certainty that the moon thing was staged.
It would be easier to stage it than to actually land on it. Maybe the fact that we haven' been back there is very telling. Is our government afraid to prove that we don't have the ability even now to pull it off?
I also find it very interesting that the Wernher Von Braun who led the development of the Saturn V rocket had Psalms 19:1 posted on his gravestone:
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork."
Nothing gets past the firmament and he knew it. Interesting breadcrumb for the rest of us....
Sure it's open for debate. In the course of this debate, skeptics are repeatedly mystified by basic questions in physics. I'm not name calling anyone – I'm pointing out that the things all you skeptics seem to get hung up on are just not that complicated. It doesn't build a lot of trust in your position that you guys can't grasp basic principles here.
Do you think satellites are fake too? How much of space is a big hoax?
Besides there is tons of evidence that varifies the Apollo landings happened. Moon rocks, moon dust on space suits, photos, eyewitnesses, laser reflectors on the moon placed by the astronauts, pictures of the landing sites decades later from the LRO and other countries moon probes. So many engineers, geologists, astronomers, etc., etc. all lying about it then and now? No way!
The existence of human made things on the moon doesn't prove humans themselves were ever there. The Soviets had already crashed a probe on the moon before 1960, soft-landed a probe in 1966, and brought back material with probes in 1970.
It is easy for a federal agency to employ tens of thousands of people on a project and still keep secrets. They are compartmentalized, each given clearance only to information they need to know for their job. An engineer on the stage 1 booster has no direct knowledge of what the supposed landing vehicle will do, if anything.
That's especially true when the agency works hand in hand with the military and intelligence agencies, as NASA effectively does. Spy satellites, nuclear missile forces, their operations are riddled with top secrecy, with much still classified today. The same sort of people who have somehow kept the contents of Area 51 secret, even though there are probably thousands of them, at least.
That's why moon-doubt threads are a useful exercise. They always draw out the comments about "oh no, the government could never keep a secret like that, too big." It can and it does, don't be ridiculous.
Everything you listed was/is much smaller than the Apollo program. Remember this was >5% of the federal budget back then.
On top of that, there are compelling reasons for involved parties to keep things like nukes/espionage a secret. You are comparing the loyalty of people working on matters of national security to hypothetically 400,000 people asked to cover up a hoax (that would have been obvious to many of them). That's the ridiculous statement.
Why can't you ever admit that goverments have a long history of telling lies. Can't you admit that without name calling which many others on this thread have resorted to.
The issue is valid for debate. You can agree or disagree. I think that back in those times our goverment was so obsessed with the USSR they were capable of almost anything. And many people are so naive that they'll believe anything if you give them a explanation.
I don't belive Oswald killed Kennedy and I do believe our gorverment covered it up at the very least. And it's a certainty that the moon thing was staged.
It would be easier to stage it than to actually land on it. Maybe the fact that we haven' been back there is very telling. Is our government afraid to prove that we don't have the ability even now to pull it off?
I also find it very interesting that the Wernher Von Braun who led the development of the Saturn V rocket had Psalms 19:1 posted on his gravestone:
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork."
Nothing gets past the firmament and he knew it. Interesting breadcrumb for the rest of us....
In addition to being a self appointed "renowned virologist", the dead gorilla is also an expert on astro physics. I would expect nothing less after the prolific rafts of covid nonsense.
Who would have thought the antivaxxers would also be braindead conspiracy addicts. More evidence supporting the Swedish IQ study.
The first time something like landing on the moon is done it is a huge deal, four landings later and it was already meh.
If there was a huge payoff that covered the costs of the missions then maybe you would be motivated to carry on, there isn't.
Your post is so "America-is-the-center-of-the-universe" centric it's comical. May not have been a "huge deal" after 1972 for the mighty US - but it was a big deal for the Soviets (who btw were light years ahead of the US space program until in the space of like 3 weeks it was completely reversed), it was a big deal for the Chinese, the European Space Agency and the Indians - all who have been trying over the last 50 years and got nowhere. Anyone want to sit here and contend that these cultures/societies are intellectually/industriously inferior to this country? I'm laughing writing that.
.
Please provide evidence that any of these countries outside the USSR has invested nearly as much time and $ toward a manned moon landing. Remember, it was ~5% of federal budget for a decade or so.
(Also... yes? The US has consistently proven it is the best at discovering/inventing/building things in the last century. I absolutely will sit here and contend other countries are inferior in that regard. e.g. Sent from my iPhone)
The two Neils: Neil Degrasse Tyson and Neil Armstrong.
NDT says that you ought to see stars with the naked eye from the surface of the moon. That contradicts the testimonies. Always a pleasure trapping science believers on this one, they have to pick a side between Armstrong and NDT, it's great.
I think NDT is right, Armstrong made it up on the spot when asked by a journalist at the Apollo 11 post flight conference (which is available on youtube), and they all stuck with this scientifically inaccurate lie going forward.
Neil Armstrong's reasoning for why the moon landing wasn't fake:
"It was never a concern to me because I know that one day, somebody's going to go fly back up there and pick up the camera that I left." Then after he passed away, his wife finds a camera from Apollo 11 that he kept from the mission, hidden away in his home for more than 40 years.
Was this the same camera he was referring to? Was he letting us in on a little secret in that interview, but waiting until after his death for the grand reveal?
The only way to spread the knowledge is to fund private industry projects nationwide. You can't have Los Angeles do it all like the 1960s Apollo 11 program. It's not smart for national security.
NASA was mainly Cal Tech, USC, UCLA, and Stanford people. Aerospace companies are all in West LA, Torrance, San Fernando Valley. Tests were held at Edwards AFB and Vandenberg AFB. Because of the turbulent 1960s, JFK and LBJ had to wrestle Southern support for NASA, and were forced to award some work to out of the way places like Alabama, Texas, etc.
The approximate cost of the Apollo program in today's dollars was $260 Billion. In addition, we had also spent another $25 Billion on the manned Mercury/Gemini programs and about $5 Billion on the Ranger/Surveyor unmanned lander programs. Of the 9 total Ranger landers (designed solely to photograph and crash into the Moon), the first 6 completely failed to achieve their goals. Of the 7 Surveyor landers, 2 failed completely. Numerous other landers from other countries also failed. The Apollo program also had two major failures, one on the ground during testing that killed all three astronauts in the capsule, and Apollo 13 (if you want to know what happened, watch the movie). If you add the sheer volume of failures related to space shuttles, rocket tests, and interplanetary orbiters/landers, governments of the Earth have spent billions of dollars on missions that have provided almost zero ROI.
This $108M failure is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. It is actually a miracle more of our missions haven't failed - space is extremely dangerous, there are numerous variables that we have to basically cross our fingers won't cause mission failure, and humans involved in any activity make mistakes since that's one of the risks of being a human. To achieve the results we gained from the Apollo landings, we used technology from 60+ years ago, most of which no longer exists at a functional level at any space agency. We have had to start over from scratch, and so in a sense, we are starting back at Square One with landing human beings on the Moon. Be prepared for more failures like thjs one, but hopefully, the successes will make these all worth it.
Today’s defense dept budget is like $775 billion, right? (Per year)
NASA was mainly Cal Tech, USC, UCLA, and Stanford people. Aerospace companies are all in West LA, Torrance, San Fernando Valley. Tests were held at Edwards AFB and Vandenberg AFB. Because of the turbulent 1960s, JFK and LBJ had to wrestle Southern support for NASA, and were forced to award some work to out of the way places like Alabama, Texas, etc.
My father worked for NACA then NASA and the original space program beginning in the 1950s for 30 years. He worked at Langley Air Force base in Hampton, VA where much of the brain work and strategy took place, not in CA. That is different than manufacturing the rockets in CA & NY.
The LBJ years were transitional, and my family almost moved to Houston where many projects are now headquartered. According to my father, this was the beginning of the decline. The early NASA program was an independent agency and the directors were aeronautical engineers. At some point while my father worked at NASA the whole culture changed. The directors became political appointees that may not be top engineers, or engineers at al,
NASA was and maybe still is involved in many defense related projects and even secret projects such as those in Nevada. On business trips, my father would tell my mother that he was going to Cape Canaveral in FL and bring me back a present with a receipt still in the bag that said purchased in Nevada. I think he was working on an antigravity project.
There is a two hour documentary on how the whole moon mission was faked. What we do know is a Hollywood studio did recreate some of what happened to show the public, and some of it definitely is not accurate and fueled the conspiracy theory.
On the surface of the moon, they were in direct sunlight, so still would not clearly see stars. The astronauts did describe seeing many stars while in orbit on the far side (dark side) of the moon.
Most people have no understanding of Engineering and the complexities involved with a huge system in the current state of technology. In 1969, the very best computers were toys compared to a smartphone today. The rockets were much, much simpler than today. Failures were fatal.
Remember that Apollo 1 burned and killed the astronauts. The Apollo 13 missed the moon and barely made it back to Earth. The astronauts calculated the return trajectory by hand with slide rules. Even the Space Shuttle program was far simpler. 2 Shuttles completely failed killing all on board.
With today's complexity comes many more failure points. But it also come with a lot of redundancy and safety systems. This failure did not kill anyone and the mission continues, but will not reach it's original goal.
A baseball player who hits 1 in 3 is considered great. Spacecraft engineers are hitting .980+ in a field that has a million more variables and requires years of work for one try.
The existence of human made things on the moon doesn't prove humans themselves were ever there. The Soviets had already crashed a probe on the moon before 1960, soft-landed a probe in 1966, and brought back material with probes in 1970.
It is easy for a federal agency to employ tens of thousands of people on a project and still keep secrets. They are compartmentalized, each given clearance only to information they need to know for their job. An engineer on the stage 1 booster has no direct knowledge of what the supposed landing vehicle will do, if anything.
That's especially true when the agency works hand in hand with the military and intelligence agencies, as NASA effectively does. Spy satellites, nuclear missile forces, their operations are riddled with top secrecy, with much still classified today. The same sort of people who have somehow kept the contents of Area 51 secret, even though there are probably thousands of them, at least.
That's why moon-doubt threads are a useful exercise. They always draw out the comments about "oh no, the government could never keep a secret like that, too big." It can and it does, don't be ridiculous.
Everything you listed was/is much smaller than the Apollo program. Remember this was >5% of the federal budget back then.
On top of that, there are compelling reasons for involved parties to keep things like nukes/espionage a secret. You are comparing the loyalty of people working on matters of national security to hypothetically 400,000 people asked to cover up a hoax (that would have been obvious to many of them). That's the ridiculous statement.
The US military-industrial complex overall was budgeted way higher than 5%, and kept its secrets just fine. You don't need every US service member to know them. Only those who need to know.
You can send 400,000 soldiers to invade a country, but also send a small elite black ops unit to fake the death of its president and secretly transport him to Guantanamo Bay prison. None of the other 400,000 soldiers know a damn thing about it, and the black ops guys and their superiors will never spill the beans. This is routine for the US military, for which NASA was essentially a civilian front.
Nearly every Apollo astronaut was either a military service member or veteran.
To repeat, if government can't keep such a big secret, what's the deal with Area 51? Even if it turns out to be just an ordinary x-plane test site, those secrets have still been keep exceptionally well. Thousands of people know what's there, but there has been no definitive leak, ever.
The US military-industrial complex overall was budgeted way higher than 5%, and kept its secrets just fine. You don't need every US service member to know them. Only those who need to know.
You can send 400,000 soldiers to invade a country, but also send a small elite black ops unit to fake the death of its president and secretly transport him to Guantanamo Bay prison. None of the other 400,000 soldiers know a damn thing about it, and the black ops guys and their superiors will never spill the beans. This is routine for the US military, for which NASA was essentially a civilian front.
Nearly every Apollo astronaut was either a military service member or veteran.
To repeat, if government can't keep such a big secret, what's the deal with Area 51? Even if it turns out to be just an ordinary x-plane test site, those secrets have still been keep exceptionally well. Thousands of people know what's there, but there has been no definitive leak, ever.
Yes, because Area 51 isn't a gigantic hoax where thousands of people are being asked to deliberately lie to their countrymen + accept honor and accolades as if they were heroes.
It couldn't be a small group. Everyone in mission control, the astronauts, the people coordinating the fake landings to get the lander and rovers and whatever on the moon, etc would all have to be in on it. That thousands of people.
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