It's been determined that the only fair solution is to do away with gender categories altogether. It makes sense when you get past how contrived and carried women's sports have been to try to force "equality" when so many women could not care less.
I'll patiently await your interconvertible argument in support of the statement "trans girls are girls." I have been reading arguments about this kind of issue since Juniper ran for the University of Montana and I still haven't seen such an argument made by anyone. You avoided saying I'm a bigot for thinking this runner is a boy, but you do say all my opinions on the issue are suspect or invalid because I won't accede to the argument (which no one ever actually makes) that he is actually she. So, please, make the argument. Not the argument that he has chosen to be "express as a female" but that he is literally a girl. Go on. If you can do it, you'll be a hero of the trans activist movement.
I have no interest in being a hero of the trans activist movement. I'm just in favor of common sense.
Soren would say, "I am a girl." That's my proof. She should run as a girl.
I'll patiently await your interconvertible argument in support of the statement "trans girls are girls." I have been reading arguments about this kind of issue since Juniper ran for the University of Montana and I still haven't seen such an argument made by anyone. You avoided saying I'm a bigot for thinking this runner is a boy, but you do say all my opinions on the issue are suspect or invalid because I won't accede to the argument (which no one ever actually makes) that he is actually she. So, please, make the argument. Not the argument that he has chosen to be "express as a female" but that he is literally a girl. Go on. If you can do it, you'll be a hero of the trans activist movement.
I have no interest in being a hero of the trans activist movement. I'm just in favor of common sense.
Soren would say, "I am a girl." That's my proof. She should run as a girl.
And if the same athlete said "I am 12" should that be considered proof to compete and dominate against 12 year olds?
I'll patiently await your interconvertible argument in support of the statement "trans girls are girls." I have been reading arguments about this kind of issue since Juniper ran for the University of Montana and I still haven't seen such an argument made by anyone. You avoided saying I'm a bigot for thinking this runner is a boy, but you do say all my opinions on the issue are suspect or invalid because I won't accede to the argument (which no one ever actually makes) that he is actually she. So, please, make the argument. Not the argument that he has chosen to be "express as a female" but that he is literally a girl. Go on. If you can do it, you'll be a hero of the trans activist movement.
I have no interest in being a hero of the trans activist movement. I'm just in favor of common sense.
Soren would say, "I am a girl." That's my proof. She should run as a girl.
'Common sense' doesn't have anything to do with what you just said lol. If an adult says 'I am 10 years old' should they attend middle school?
I don't think anyone should be discriminated against in education, housing, employment, voting, healthcare, sports participation or any other areas of public or private life - or subjected to ridicule, abuse, ostracism or any other kind of mistreatment - for having a trans, non-binary or other kind of "gender identity" or for appearing, "presenting," behaving or having love interests, intimate relationships and household arrangements that are different from mainstream norms.
Ok, I agree with this of course, but I am not sure you mean it. Take the example of Maddie cited above. She wants to play youth softball and she is barred from doing so in North Carolina. What is your remediation plan for this situation? If you think offering her participation on the boy's baseball team is the correct answer, then this is the crux of our disagreement. Telling Maddie she may not play softball effectively bars her from playing sports. If this softball team is a school team, this is discrimination in education. Also, this standard you set of setting policies that "prevent some female people losing out..." is understandable and sounds laudable, but not an absolute standard that prevents us from setting anti-discrimination policies. When the MLB was opened up to Black players, plenty of White players "lost out", but still this was the right thing to do, both morally and legally.
From the Guardian story you posted, Maddie is a 13-year-old boy with shoulder-length hair and an affinity for dresses and big hairbows who was "transitioned" by his parents the summer before he started kindergarten.
You say Maddie "wants to play youth softball." But the reality is that Maddie wants to play girls' softball - and he wants female students' hard-won rights to fair, safe, female-only sports under Title IX to be removed so he can get his way.
The Guardian article says that Maddie's parents decided their son is a girl because as a tot, Maddie displayed tastes and behaviors that the parents felt were entirely unsuitable for boys.
Specifically, from the time he was a toddler Maddie always liked wearing dresses and playing with girls. As a tyke, Maddie also enjoyed putting his wee feet into his Sunday school teacher's high-heeled shoes and clomping around in them the way many kids of both sexes do. What's more, once when he was a little boy Maddiie told his mom that he'd like to cut his penis off.
Instead of lovingly accepting their little boy as he was - and insted of helping him to accept, love and feel at home in his body - the parents decided to brainwash Maddie into believing he's a girl who was somehow born in a wrong body.
I feel bad for Maddie, because I think he's the victim of extreme child abuse. But I also think Maddie should be on boys' sports teams with others of his sex.
If the other boys in Maddie's school and sports leagues are mean or unwelcoming to Maddie because of Maddie's clothing preferences, the way Maddie wears his hair and Maddie's atypical "gender identity," the boys need to be taught, encouraged and expected to do their bit for "diversity, equity and inclusion" by accepting Maddie as one of their own and showing Maddie utmost kindess and compassion. Boys of Maddie's age are perfectly capable of doing this.
I think trying to shoehorn Maddie into the female category of sports is wrong. I also think it's wrong and inappropriate for Maddie at age 13 and beyond to be using the girls' locker rooms and communal toilets, and having sleepovers with girls.
I also think it's sexist and male supremacist AF to expect girls to be the ones who do all the work of "diversity, equity and inclusion" in the case of boys like Maddie whilst all the other boys in Maddie's school and community are entirely let off the hook.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
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We have enough Youth, What we need is a Fountain of Smart.
The fact that you are comparing XC times run by different runners on different courses in different climates proves that you are clueless about the sport.
And yes, it is unfair that a biological female is beaten by a biological male pretending to be female when the race is supposed to be for females.
Do you really think Ms Williams would have a remote chance of medaling in the CA SS? A few years back my daughter ran 18:01 in her CA regional meet (sectional meet) and she got 3rd. She was deprived of a gold medal simply because of her zip code. Oh the injustice!!
Wise Old Man, you have completely missed the point. Your daughter lost in a race running against girls. Talking about Zip Code is in this discussion is like talking about a baseball bat being used play hockey. It doesn't compute. It's a mixed metaphor. What would have been unfair would have been if your daughter were placed in the Boys race. Where would that 18:01 have placed her? Would you have said THAT was unfair? Have you noticed that the "Trans Boys" never (And that's a big NEVER) ever win the boys divisions? Why do you suppose that is?
You're not alone in this. It's the reason why your opinion on the transgender sporting issue is suspect.
It would be like saying, "Men and women are not equal, so women should not vote." or "Black and white people are not equal, so they should not go to the same schools."
If you get the first part of the statement wrong: i.e. "Trans girls are boys," then I am not putting much stock into what you say next
I'll patiently await your interconvertible argument in support of the statement "trans girls are girls." I have been reading arguments about this kind of issue since Juniper ran for the University of Montana and I still haven't seen such an argument made by anyone. You avoided saying I'm a bigot for thinking this runner is a boy, but you do say all my opinions on the issue are suspect or invalid because I won't accede to the argument (which no one ever actually makes) that he is actually she. So, please, make the argument. Not the argument that he has chosen to be "express as a female" but that he is literally a girl. Go on. If you can do it, you'll be a hero of the trans activist movement.
“Interconvertible” in the sense of equivalent elements in separate arguments? Typo?
I have no interest in being a hero of the trans activist movement. I'm just in favor of common sense.
Soren would say, "I am a girl." That's my proof. She should run as a girl.
The arguments against "just go with what the person says they are" are so obvious that... well, other posters have already made them. I see no common sense here. Indeed, "common sense" often refers to older wisdom that is being ignored in favor of some new trendy idea that is popular but illogical.
Maddie’s parents “transitioned” him the summer between K and first grade.
According to the Guardian article, Maddie’s “transition” consisted of taking Maddie shopping for a new wardrobe, allowing him to wear dresses to school, alerting the local press that a “trans girl” was starting first grade and would be wearing a dress the first day, and Maddie’s mom looking for a lawyer so the parents could begin the process of fighting against all the unjustified discrimination, unfairness, bigotry and hate they were sure Maddie would be subjected to at school.
That's exactly what Jazz Jennings' parents did. But because Jazz's dad is an attorney himself, Jazz's parents were ahead of the curve sabre rattling in this regard. They started threatening legal actions and filing complaints and lawsuits against Jazz's schools and local sports leagues whilst Jazz was still in preschool.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Transgender runner who competed last year on the boys team wins Maine regionals by a minute and a half. One of the girls who placed lower as a result spoke out in the article below. Allowing this is so discouraging and unfair to young female athletes.
Winthrop senior Haley Williams, the runner-up as a sophomore and junior, finished third in 20:59.11. Williams said she knew second place would be her best possible finish this year, “because as you probably know there is a runner that identifies as female, and they were running the boys’ race last year, and they decided to run the girls’ race this year. And it’s really, it’s very upsetting to me because I’ve worked my butt off all year.”
There’s so much “unfairness” in the world. Is Ms Williams had run in the D3 section races in the north coast or southern sections of CA she would finish dead last or close to it. So, I guess it’s “unfair” that she lost to Soren, but she’s awfully lucky she’s competing in Maine if place in the race is what matters to her most.
You're a Wise Old Idiot! Ooops....correction, OLD IDIOT!
How does it feel to bash a teenage girl who simply is trying her best, and then she has to deal with a BOY who wants to be a GIRL, and wants to compete against girls to show how good HE is. It's not about inclusivity, HE just wants to beat girls. I'm embarrassed for HIM and his abusive parents. The Maine school administrator quoted in the article in favor of Mr. Soren competing against girls is a coward who doesn't want to lose his job.
From the Guardian story you posted, Maddie is a 13-year-old boy with shoulder-length hair and an affinity for dresses and big hairbows who was "transitioned" by his parents the summer before he started kindergarten.
You say Maddie "wants to play youth softball." But the reality is that Maddie wants to play girls' softball - and he wants female students' hard-won rights to fair, safe, female-only sports under Title IX to be removed so he can get his way.
The Guardian article says that Maddie's parents decided their son is a girl because as a tot, Maddie displayed tastes and behaviors that the parents felt were entirely unsuitable for boys.
Specifically, from the time he was a toddler Maddie always liked wearing dresses and playing with girls. As a tyke, Maddie also enjoyed putting his wee feet into his Sunday school teacher's high-heeled shoes and clomping around in them the way many kids of both sexes do. What's more, once when he was a little boy Maddiie told his mom that he'd like to cut his penis off.
Instead of lovingly accepting their little boy as he was - and insted of helping him to accept, love and feel at home in his body - the parents decided to brainwash Maddie into believing he's a girl who was somehow born in a wrong body.
I feel bad for Maddie, because I think he's the victim of extreme child abuse. But I also think Maddie should be on boys' sports teams with others of his sex.
If the other boys in Maddie's school and sports leagues are mean or unwelcoming to Maddie because of Maddie's clothing preferences, the way Maddie wears his hair and Maddie's atypical "gender identity," the boys need to be taught, encouraged and expected to do their bit for "diversity, equity and inclusion" by accepting Maddie as one of their own and showing Maddie utmost kindess and compassion. Boys of Maddie's age are perfectly capable of doing this.
I think trying to shoehorn Maddie into the female category of sports is wrong. I also think it's wrong and inappropriate for Maddie at age 13 and beyond to be using the girls' locker rooms and communal toilets, and having sleepovers with girls.
I also think it's sexist and male supremacist AF to expect girls to be the ones who do all the work of "diversity, equity and inclusion" in the case of boys like Maddie whilst all the other boys in Maddie's school and community are entirely let off the hook.
So when push comes to shove, you deny transness exists and it’s all a product of sex stereotypes and abusive parents and you can’t even manage to use Maddie’s correct pronouns. You’ve revealed your backstory to us, so I guess I do understand the genesis of your trans hate. You profess you want to treat trans people with dignity and then you turn around and tell them they are the way they are because they’ve been abused or brainwashed, and then you purposefully misgender them and sarcastically deny their identity. Your plan is to belittle and segregate. That’s nothing but hate pure and simple.
The Guardian article says that Maddie's parents decided their son is a girl because as a tot, Maddie displayed tastes and behaviors that the parents felt were entirely unsuitable for boys.
No. The parents did not make that decision. They took Maddie to a therapist.
The issue we disagree over isn't "trans rights," though. I actually believe in full civil and political rights for people who identify as trans ( and as nonbinary, genderfluid, nullgender, transmasc, transfemme, vapogender and all the other gender identities currently in vogue).
I don't think anyone should be discriminated against in education, housing, employment, voting, healthcare, sports participation or any other areas of public or private life - or subjected to ridicule, abuse, ostracism or any other kind of mistreatment - for having a trans, non-binary or other kind of "gender identity" or for appearing, "presenting," behaving or having love interests, intimate relationships and household arrangements that are different from mainstream norms.
As someone who has personally always rejected, defied and fought against the sexist stereotypes, expectations and restrictions imposed on me because of my female sex - and who's actively marched and campaigned for lesbian and gay rights - I believe very strongly that male people as well as female people should be free not to conform to the sexist stereotypes, expectations, appearance and behavior standards associated with their sex.
What I am not on board with is the particular measures you are promoting in the name of "trans rights" that favor, advantage and privilege male people who've adoped a trans identity over female people - and which require girls and women to forfeit our hard-won rights.
I categorically reject your worldview that bestowing rights on one group means depriving another group of their rights.
Human rights are not a zero sum game.
Everyone deserves human rights. But as landmark international human rights agreements such as the Geneva Accords, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and the Nelson Mandela Principles all make clear, sex and age make a difference to some human rights.
Since you find my views "absurd," why not counter them with reason? All the high-horse harrumphing, finger-wagging, woke scolding, tossing off accusations of bigotry and racism, mansplaining and putting down girls and women who stand up for oursleves that you do is tiresome - and unpersuasive.
Your time and efforts would be much better put to use by simply explaining in clear terms exactly how female sports, spaces and services can be opened up to male people without at least some female people losing out, being endangered, feeling distressed, forfeiting our rights and ending up getting elbowed out, intimidated, punched down on, perved on, preyed on, sexually assaulted, excluded and forced out.
I don't think anyone should be discriminated against in education, housing, employment, voting, healthcare, sports participation or any other areas of public or private life - or subjected to ridicule, abuse, ostracism or any other kind of mistreatment - for having a trans, non-binary or other kind of "gender identity" or for appearing, "presenting," behaving or having love interests, intimate relationships and household arrangements that are different from mainstream norms.
Ok, I agree with this of course, but I am not sure you mean it. Take the example of Maddie cited above. She wants to play youth softball and she is barred from doing so in North Carolina. What is your remediation plan for this situation? If you think offering her participation on the boy's baseball team is the correct answer, then this is the crux of our disagreement. Telling Maddie she may not play softball effectively bars her from playing sports. If this softball team is a school team, this is discrimination in education. Also, this standard you set of setting policies that "prevent some female people losing out..." is understandable and sounds laudable, but not an absolute standard that prevents us from setting anti-discrimination policies. When the MLB was opened up to Black players, plenty of White players "lost out", but still this was the right thing to do, both morally and legally.
I just want to be sure you saw my other post, if not I'll repeat the message:
Everyone? Even 10% would not be achievable. I’ve never seen “full stop” and “end of story” in the same sentence.
Yes. Trans activists want everyone to believe the runner who is subject of this thread is, in fact, a girl. For all intents and purposes, a girl. Not a special class of girl but just a girl . . . full stop, end of story. If you don't believe me, you don't know a lot about trans activism.
Where are these people? I don’t recall anyone coming out in support of Lia Thomas pr the 1600m transgender females in California. There has similarly been minimal reaction to red states banning transgender athletes or Trump’s “Men can’t compete with women” statements. Your trans activists are in the minority so they would have no power anyway.
I have no interest in being a hero of the trans activist movement. I'm just in favor of common sense.
Soren would say, "I am a girl." That's my proof. She should run as a girl.
And if the same athlete said "I am 12" should that be considered proof to compete and dominate against 12 year olds?
"How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four."
"Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane."
From the Guardian story you posted, Maddie is a 13-year-old boy with shoulder-length hair and an affinity for dresses and big hairbows who was "transitioned" by his parents the summer before he started kindergarten.
You say Maddie "wants to play youth softball." But the reality is that Maddie wants to play girls' softball - and he wants female students' hard-won rights to fair, safe, female-only sports under Title IX to be removed so he can get his way.
The Guardian article says that Maddie's parents decided their son is a girl because as a tot, Maddie displayed tastes and behaviors that the parents felt were entirely unsuitable for boys.
Specifically, from the time he was a toddler Maddie always liked wearing dresses and playing with girls. As a tyke, Maddie also enjoyed putting his wee feet into his Sunday school teacher's high-heeled shoes and clomping around in them the way many kids of both sexes do. What's more, once when he was a little boy Maddiie told his mom that he'd like to cut his penis off.
Instead of lovingly accepting their little boy as he was - and insted of helping him to accept, love and feel at home in his body - the parents decided to brainwash Maddie into believing he's a girl who was somehow born in a wrong body.
I feel bad for Maddie, because I think he's the victim of extreme child abuse. But I also think Maddie should be on boys' sports teams with others of his sex.
If the other boys in Maddie's school and sports leagues are mean or unwelcoming to Maddie because of Maddie's clothing preferences, the way Maddie wears his hair and Maddie's atypical "gender identity," the boys need to be taught, encouraged and expected to do their bit for "diversity, equity and inclusion" by accepting Maddie as one of their own and showing Maddie utmost kindess and compassion. Boys of Maddie's age are perfectly capable of doing this.
I think trying to shoehorn Maddie into the female category of sports is wrong. I also think it's wrong and inappropriate for Maddie at age 13 and beyond to be using the girls' locker rooms and communal toilets, and having sleepovers with girls.
I also think it's sexist and male supremacist AF to expect girls to be the ones who do all the work of "diversity, equity and inclusion" in the case of boys like Maddie whilst all the other boys in Maddie's school and community are entirely let off the hook.
So when push comes to shove, you deny transness exists and it’s all a product of sex stereotypes and abusive parents and you can’t even manage to use Maddie’s correct pronouns. You’ve revealed your backstory to us, so I guess I do understand the genesis of your trans hate. You profess you want to treat trans people with dignity and then you turn around and tell them they are the way they are because they’ve been abused or brainwashed, and then you purposefully misgender them and sarcastically deny their identity. Your plan is to belittle and segregate. That’s nothing but hate pure and simple.
No sir. It is not hate to recognize biological sex exists, and to recognize someone by the pronouns of their biological sex. It's not hateful to observe facts and speak the truth of those facts.
The hateful thing is to harm kids who are confused about 'gender' by cutting their healthy genitals and other body parts, and/or giving them hormones and drugs that cause cancer and harm them physically and mentally. There is no dignity in any of that.
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