Your argument is based on a premise that electric vehicles represent progress, even if marginal. I’m just not sure that’s true for the reasons stated. There are ways in which they are an improvement over ICE vehicles, but there are ways in which they are not. Hard to say if, on balance, it’s really an improvement from an environmental and societal perspective.
We can simplify it for you.
From an air pollution standpoint alone it's a massive upgrade, especially in mega-cities in Asia.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that the microplastic and mining side effects of EVs are sufficient to offset even the air pollution benefits alone.
Ok, but this doesn’t really move the needle for me even if air quality improves (which I agree is a good thing - not saying it’s not a worthwhile goal).
I’m not opposed to buying an EV in principle, I’m just not under any delusion that I’m saving the world by doing so or that I’m some great bastion of progress. We need radical transit reform to see real progress whether you want to admit it or not.
i am fine with people articulating science based objections. what i get bored with is political stuff like "monoculture," essentially, i won't do anything that guy over there suggests, because he's the other party. no positive justification just i negatively don't have to do or support any ideas a lib ever has. can reject out of hand.
if we allow laggards on gas vs EV for decades the planet burns, period. it was 5-10 degrees hotter than the 30 year average, every day, lows and highs, for like 2 months. another 5 degrees and you're talking grids and ACs and such surviving months of 85F lows and 110F highs, at least some points each sunspot cycle.
it's like the ozone hole and CFCs. we can't do this where some people gets their aerosols and we just deal with it.
Vermont South Dakota Washington New Hampshire Idaho Maine Oregon Illinois South Carolina Kansas Tennessee Iowa New York Montana Minnesota California
Over half your electricity comes from renewables. Texas produces the most renewable energy in the nation but its not > 50% year round.
Obviously charging a battery with these energy is better than burning gas in every car.
EV buyers were at first, early adopters, virtue signalers, and people who think they're saving the planet by their car choice.
Now that they're all into EVs, the rest of us care about purchase price, convenience, and traditional car buying criteria.
Joe Six Pack doesn't care where the electricity comes from. He wants it quick, cheap, and easily available.
Today's EVs are going to be dinosaurs in a decade or two. When battery technology progresses to the point that I can buy a 10-year-old EV, take it to Walmart and have them install a new AC/Delco or Interstate battery for a couple of grand, the technology will have advanced enough for me to buy an EV. Until then, I'll drive my AWD Subaru.
From an air pollution standpoint alone it's a massive upgrade, especially in mega-cities in Asia.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that the microplastic and mining side effects of EVs are sufficient to offset even the air pollution benefits alone.
Ok, but this doesn’t really move the needle for me even if air quality improves (which I agree is a good thing - not saying it’s not a worthwhile goal).
I’m not opposed to buying an EV in principle, I’m just not under any delusion that I’m saving the world by doing so or that I’m some great bastion of progress. We need radical transit reform to see real progress whether you want to admit it or not.
Lol the US has cut total carbon emissions by 25% in the past 20 years without any radical change (thanks fracking).
Not a single person would have imagined that was possible in 2003 given we didn’t agree to any of the global GHG agreements!
Radical change rarely happens.
What happens is gradual technological improvement happens across many areas at once, with occasional large jumps. And this least to meaningful change in the long run.
I would love if all US cities magically converted to enabling easy car-fee life. We stopped suburban sprawl, etc. but sitting on your hands and saying “nah it’s not good enough” to every piece of incremental change… you’re gonna miss it.
Vermont South Dakota Washington New Hampshire Idaho Maine Oregon Illinois South Carolina Kansas Tennessee Iowa New York Montana Minnesota California
Over half your electricity comes from renewables. Texas produces the most renewable energy in the nation but its not > 50% year round.
Obviously charging a battery with these energy is better than burning gas in every car.
EV buyers were at first, early adopters, virtue signalers, and people who think they're saving the planet by their car choice.
Now that they're all into EVs, the rest of us care about purchase price, convenience, and traditional car buying criteria.
Joe Six Pack doesn't care where the electricity comes from. He wants it quick, cheap, and easily available.
Today's EVs are going to be dinosaurs in a decade or two. When battery technology progresses to the point that I can buy a 10-year-old EV, take it to Walmart and have them install a new AC/Delco or Interstate battery for a couple of grand, the technology will have advanced enough for me to buy an EV. Until then, I'll drive my AWD Subaru.
Joe six pack will care a lot when “filling up” his EV costs 1/5th of a tank of gas and the lifetime maintenance costs of the car are < 50% of a ICE.
The estimated scheduled maintenance cost for a light-duty battery-electric vehicle (BEV) totals 6.1 cents per mile, while a conventional internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) totals 10.1 cents per mile.
Suppose you drive at the American average of 1,124 miles per month. If using an EV, which gets an average of 3 to 4 miles per kWh (let’s use 3 in this case), you will use about 375 kWh a month. Using the U.S. household average of about 16 cents per kWh, charging an electric car at home would cost nearly $60 per month.
If assuming the average price of gas at $3.60 per gallon, filling up a 12-gallon gas tank would cost about $43. If you’re driving a car that brings a combined city and highway driving average of 30 miles per gallon, using that same 12-gallon tank as a reference point, you’ll have 360 miles of driving range for each fill-up. If you’re driving the same 1,124 miles per month, you’ll need to refuel three times each month and spend about $129 ($43 x 3).
I want a plug-in hybrid. We don’t have many options out there, especially for a 4-wheel drive, high clearance vehicle. I want to be able to use electric for 95% of my trips and be able to gas up when necessary for longer trips since that infrastructure is there. We’ve decided that it’s either gas or electric and hardly any in between.
This is actually exactly what my situation was. I ended up getting a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. We get ~50 electric range which handles most days easily, but have the ICE available for longer trips (skiing a little more than once per week in the winter with a 300 mile round trip). It's really been perfect for us.
We were looking at the Toyota Rav4 Prime, but it was much more expensive with little more benefit, and the Mitsubishi dealer was offering full pass along of the $7,500 tax credit with a lease and immediate buy off.
All those things added up are still much better than the enormous amount of energy we spend extract oil and the enormous amount of GHGs and pollution we dump into the atmosphere by burning it.
Just because something doesnt solve some ultimate problem (limitless energy) doesnt mean it shouldnt be done.
I swear you losers would find a way complain about cheap, easy, fusion power
I never said it shouldn’t be done, I just said I’m not buying an EV (earlier in the thread). I also said EVs are probably better for the environment than ICE vehicles, just not by the margin most people think they are.
Again, no manual transmission, no beautiful sound, most are ugly except maybe the $150K Porsche Taycan Turbo. I’ll stick to my petrol twin turbo 6 speed manual sports car.
1. EVs tend to be more expensive of an up front cost than equivalent gas powered cars. This does matter especially if paying interest on a loan for it which could easily offset savings in fuel economy at current rates.
2. The installation cost of a charger in the garage is thousands additional.
3. Range is not sufficient to hit that 8ish hours that is about as far as i ever need to drive.
4. Charging stations are unreliable and if full there can be a long wait.
There are other reasons i am sure, but so many little inconveniences make it impossible to invest in one right now. Better to wait for a breakthrough in battery tech or an improved system of charging infrastructure.
Extracting (from a volcano) on US soil will be prohibitively expensive for the foreseeable future. A few thousand African children working for small pay in unregulated sites is way cheaper. Major geopolitical uncertainty is probably the only thing that can lead to lithium extraction in Nevada.
As for the original question: My ICE car works just fine and there's no need to change it yet.
I just bought a car this year and did not look at EV at all.
For me it comes down convenience. I don't have to worry about where to charge my car and can be more spontaneous because I know there's a gas station on every corner. I also don't want to wait hours to fill a battery when I can fill a gas tank in 5 minutes.
I also live in a place that gets enough snow in the winter to be concerned if I'm starting to run me low on fuel. I can pull into a gas station anywhere very quickly and put more gas in my car but I can't pop into a charging station and tap it off in 5 minutes when there's sideways snow.
Extracting (from a volcano) on US soil will be prohibitively expensive for the foreseeable future. A few thousand African children working for small pay in unregulated sites is way cheaper. Major geopolitical uncertainty is probably the only thing that can lead to lithium extraction in Nevada.
As for the original question: My ICE car works just fine and there's no need to change it yet.
Africa's lithium production is nil and children are certainly not involved. Most Li comes from heavy industry pit mining in australia or the andes and is then processed via automation in the US or china. The kids you're thinking of are mining cobalt in the DRC
The estimated scheduled maintenance cost for a light-duty battery-electric vehicle (BEV) totals 6.1 cents per mile, while a conventional internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) totals 10.1 cents per mile.
Suppose you drive at the American average of 1,124 miles per month. If using an EV, which gets an average of 3 to 4 miles per kWh (let’s use 3 in this case), you will use about 375 kWh a month. Using the U.S. household average of about 16 cents per kWh, charging an electric car at home would cost nearly $60 per month.
If assuming the average price of gas at $3.60 per gallon, filling up a 12-gallon gas tank would cost about $43. If you’re driving a car that brings a combined city and highway driving average of 30 miles per gallon, using that same 12-gallon tank as a reference point, you’ll have 360 miles of driving range for each fill-up. If you’re driving the same 1,124 miles per month, you’ll need to refuel three times each month and spend about $129 ($43 x 3).
The maintenance thing you shared is bordering on propaganda and preying on the ignorant. This is manufacturer suggested service for a new car. Do actual service for a car 5 or 10 years old — you gotta start doing bearings and axles and anything else that moves. Timing belts? As if every new ICE has a timing belt, lol. I can't give you an actual number, but A LOT of new ICEs have a non-serviceable timing chain. Spark plugs? Most people with $50 in tools can do their spark plugs in their driveway in an hour, and the plugs themselves might only cost $50, and good plugs can easily last 50,000 miles. So, what, $150 in 100,000 miles of driving?
Some will get on on this early, some will get in on it late and the majority will get one some time in the middle.
And it has to be that way so supply can ramp up to meet that demand. We don’t need everyone wanting one now. It’s good that a lot of people have reservations.
Some will never get one. I hope we keep enough gas stations around. I have VHS tapes and a VCR that I think works. I know I can’t find a VCR player to buy now.
Some will get on on this early, some will get in on it late and the majority will get one some time in the middle.
And it has to be that way so supply can ramp up to meet that demand. We don’t need everyone wanting one now. It’s good that a lot of people have reservations.
Some will never get one. I hope we keep enough gas stations around. I have VHS tapes and a VCR that I think works. I know I can’t find a VCR player to buy now.
Here's a handy single reference for automaker's stated plans to go electric:
Automakers plot their moves from combustion engines to hybrids (done) to plug-ins and full battery-electric or hydrogen fuel cell cars, trucks and 18-wheelers.
Goals will be affected by circumstances, but electrification of new cars is going to happen relatively quickly, that being in the next decade and a half or so.
For those looking at cars and not considering an EV. What is stopping you?
Price? Range? Lack of charging stations?
It's basically a range issue. I go to races where I would be outside the range of trustworthy electric charging, and sleep in my car. Need to be certain I can get back.
i am fine with people articulating science based objections. what i get bored with is political stuff like "monoculture," essentially, i won't do anything that guy over there suggests, because he's the other party. no positive justification just i negatively don't have to do or support any ideas a lib ever has. can reject out of hand.
if we allow laggards on gas vs EV for decades the planet burns, period. it was 5-10 degrees hotter than the 30 year average, every day, lows and highs, for like 2 months. another 5 degrees and you're talking grids and ACs and such surviving months of 85F lows and 110F highs, at least some points each sunspot cycle.
it's like the ozone hole and CFCs. we can't do this where some people gets their aerosols and we just deal with it.
Crap. They placed the temp sensors at airport runways
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