Ugandan Janet Chemusto - part of Joshua Cheptegei's camp - busted

slowrunner2 wrote:

Strange, I've never heard of meldonium too. Googled it and this was what I found:

"
Meldonium has also been shown by NMR to bind to carnitine acetyltransferase.[24] Carnitine acetyltransferase belongs to a family of ubiquitous enzymes that play pivotal roles in cellular energy metabolism" (source
Meldonium - Wikipedia)

It's for medical use only and those with coronary artery disease? It doesn't sound like a fit runner like Jordan Chipangama could be prescribed meldonium by any doctor. But it does sound like somebody with the intricate knowledge of medicine such as a doctor would be needed to identify meldonium out of a mountain pile of drugs as a possible performance enhancer? Who was Jordan's doctor and why did he need one anyway if he didn't have heart disease? Could it be his team and his coaches? It doesn't sound like Jordan could do it alone and fish out meldonium himself from a medical textbook. Somebody helped him and it definitely had to be a veteran expert.

I think I can disagree with Renato Canova that athletes ingesting uncommon drugs elements did so without intent. It's for me just an assumption that needs to be concretely proven as people like Jordan and his coaching team has proven otherwise.

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I do not argue, but give a statement of fact. She was convicted by a process that doesn't require establishing intent, and then sentenced to 4-years based on a presumption of intent. That is the real story -- not your extended fantasies. This fact is only confirmed and re-inforced by your inability to rebut this historical fact.

There are other more important stories which go beyond Houlihan and explores questions like:

- is the process just for, and does the process protect, all innocent athletes? (Tygart says no. I agree with Tygart. Innocent athletes are rail-roaded to 4-year bans, and the process is subjective and not robust enough to distinguish who is truly innocent from who is truly guilty.)

- and can we consider the process a robust fact-finding method? (I say no, for example when compared to superior approaches like the scientific method which require evidence and observation.)

No - none of that is important, except to a doping denier. Dopers are being caught. That is as it should be.

Sabrina Moreno wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm talking about the substances found one time only. There are no doctors who want give athletes some PED who can use strange substances for that goal, substances that no dirty doctors in the most evolved Countries give their athletes. The effect on the performances of those substances are very poor (or, better, don't exist), and the proof of this is the fact that more the doctors know illegal drugs able to give big advantages, more they use. This means that the variety of illegal substances used by one athlete only probably are not prescribed for improving training or performances, but probably are, in small qualtity, in some drug produced in Asia, where there is not the must to detail the components of the medicine.

In my opinion, athletes caught for Nandrolone, Corticosteroids, EPO wanted to dope for improving training and performances, while athletes caught for drugs normally not used for doping are positive because unlucky (substances in some medicine used for treating some sickness) or careless

I can accept your argument of substances from asia like maybe china with illegal substances and which are also one-off but how are these substances even find its way into a doctor's office or pharmacy? Aren't they supposed to be regulated by medical license?

Next, why did you omit testosterone? Isn't that important for enhancing performances too? And how could you say there are no other substances apart from those 3 above that could enhance performances?

Not sure if you had heard of Jordan Chipangama? He was busted for 'meldonium' in 2017 twice and I bet nobody has ever heard of that drug too? Have you? Do you think Jordan accidentally ingested meldonium tainted medicine due to flu or tummy ache?

I don't actually think your assumption that athletes taking unheard of drugs are definitely unintentional as I believe that it's plausible that athletes should look for more 'exotic' drugs so that if they are caught they have a more 'exotic' excuse to blame. They could say 'oh I was trying to resolve my flu and bought a cheap flu med at my local grocer to save money'

What say you?

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

No - none of that is important, except to a doping denier. Dopers are being caught. That is as it should be.

Really?

It seem important enough for you to take the time to respond to me for the last five pages, all the while failing to address or rebut the original point -- "intent" was not established as a "fact" at any time by anyone. The CAS clearly told us it was presumed, then deemed.

Justice and protecting innocent athletes are not important? That is the whole raison d'etre for WADA. The injustice of shifting the burden to innocent athletes seems important enough that Tygart comments on it everytime USADA clears an athlete with a "No fault" finding.

Does that make WADA and Tygart doping deniers?

Using a robust method for finding facts is not important? Maybe not for the religions of fanatics, but for gaining knowledge, it certainly is.

rekrunner wrote:

Sabrina Moreno wrote:

I can accept your argument of substances from asia like maybe china with illegal substances and which are also one-off but how are these substances even find its way into a doctor's office or pharmacy? Aren't they supposed to be regulated by medical license?

Next, why did you omit testosterone? Isn't that important for enhancing performances too? And how could you say there are no other substances apart from those 3 above that could enhance performances?

Not sure if you had heard of Jordan Chipangama? He was busted for 'meldonium' in 2017 twice and I bet nobody has ever heard of that drug too? Have you? Do you think Jordan accidentally ingested meldonium tainted medicine due to flu or tummy ache?

I don't actually think your assumption that athletes taking unheard of drugs are definitely unintentional as I believe that it's plausible that athletes should look for more 'exotic' drugs so that if they are caught they have a more 'exotic' excuse to blame. They could say 'oh I was trying to resolve my flu and bought a cheap flu med at my local grocer to save money'

What say you?

Some of this was already in a 2017 study published by WADA.

One reason for excluding testosterone is because that is not a common drug among Kenyan athletes -- only 1 bust between 2004-2018.

Renato has explained before that Kenya sources its legitimate medicines from Asian countries where they are cheaper, but also quality control is less than Western standards. Furthermore, pharmacists remove the exact quantity of drugs from the bottle and give them in an unlabeled container, to stretch the medication further, but making due-diligence impossible.

No one has heard of Jordan Chipangama. He is a 2:11 runner from Zambia who ran in the US.

When WADA banned meldonium -- a common drug prescribed in Russia and Ethiopia -- it was controversial. It was apparently banned on the observation that a lot of athletes were using it, therefore they must know something that WADA didn't. (An argument that WADA rejected for thyroid medication.) The more conspiracy minded suggested it was a way to target Russian and Ethiopian athletes for busts, rather than ban a performance enhancing drug.

I'm also not as convinced as Renato about nandrolone. Nandrolone injection is a common treatment by doctors for muscle injury -- and the 2017 study reported that a lot of athletes and doctors are not aware of athletes obligations with respect to common treatments. Furthermore, we learned, at least in Kenya, farmers do not routinely castrate their pigs, so consumption of intact boar meat and organs leading to unknowing nandrolone ingestion would be more likely.

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Some of this was already in a 2017 study published by WADA.

One reason for excluding testosterone is because that is not a common drug among Kenyan athletes -- only 1 bust between 2004-2018.

Renato has explained before that Kenya sources its legitimate medicines from Asian countries where they are cheaper, but also quality control is less than Western standards. Furthermore, pharmacists remove the exact quantity of drugs from the bottle and give them in an unlabeled container, to stretch the medication further, but making due-diligence impossible.

No one has heard of Jordan Chipangama. He is a 2:11 runner from Zambia who ran in the US.

When WADA banned meldonium -- a common drug prescribed in Russia and Ethiopia -- it was controversial. It was apparently banned on the observation that a lot of athletes were using it, therefore they must know something that WADA didn't. (An argument that WADA rejected for thyroid medication.) The more conspiracy minded suggested it was a way to target Russian and Ethiopian athletes for busts, rather than ban a performance enhancing drug.

I'm also not as convinced as Renato about nandrolone. Nandrolone injection is a common treatment by doctors for muscle injury -- and the 2017 study reported that a lot of athletes and doctors are not aware of athletes obligations with respect to common treatments. Furthermore, we learned, at least in Kenya, farmers do not routinely castrate their pigs, so consumption of intact boar meat and organs leading to unknowing nandrolone ingestion would be more likely.

Actually, in Kenya it is doping which is more likely. The stream of doping violations shows that.