Males Win All Medals In New Non-Binary Category at 2022 USA Cyclocross National Championships

Oh mate, can't you hear yourself? You accuse me of peddling solely in anecdotes when that is exactly what you do. Classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I want policy decisions in sports and other areas of life to be based on material reality and proven risk profiles. Fact is, the "trans people" you want to have full access to female sports, "safe spaces" and services are all males. Even when males use hormones, makeup, clothing, hair extensions, wigs, long hair, prosthetics, silicone implants, plastic surgeries and cosmetic procedures like body sculpting and fillers to make themselves look extremely "feminine," they don't change sex. They are still male.

No matter what they look like, males who identify as trans have the same offending patterns as others of their sex. In fact, the statistics - not anecdotes but statistics - from the UK Ministry of Justice and the USA's federal Bureau of Prisons suggest that males who identify as trans, whether sincerely or spuriously, are more likely to commit sex offenses against women and children than males who don't identify as trans.

This doesn't mean most males who identify as trans are likely to commit sex offenses including assault against women and girls or to perv on us. It just means some of them are likely to do so. Just as most ordinary men and boys do not commit assault or sex offenses against girls and women, most trans-identified males don't either. Just some of them do.

But regardless how males "identify," dress or appear, there's no way for girls and women to know which adolescent and adult males wouldn't hurt a fly and which ones are a threat. So the easiest, most efficient way to maximize girls' and women's chances of being safe and providing us with privacy, dignity and peace of mind in facilities like toilets and locker rooms is to keep ALL males out of these sorts of female "safe spaces." Which most men and teen boys with an ounce of compassion and respect for female people understand. As the saying goes, "the good guys stay out so that the bad guys will keep out too."

Just as males who identify as trans have a myriad of physical features that give them huge advantages over females in sports that make it unfair and unsafe for females to have to compete against them, most males who identify as trans have the same exact or very similar advantages in strength, speed, explosiveness, lung & heart size & power, skull & bone thickness & sturdiness, hand size, grip strength, punching power, kicking force and so on that make it easy for most adolescent boys and grown men to intimidate, cow and overpower most women and girls.

A recent study out of Brazil showed that even after nearly 14.5 years on testosterone suppression and exogenous estrogen, males who "identify as" women still have strength and VO2 capacity far, far exceeding that of females.

bjsm.bmj.com

Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Objective For transgender women (TW) on oestrogen therapy, the effects of prior exposure to testosterone during puberty on their performance, mainly cardiopulmonary capacity (CPC), while exerting physical effort are unknown....

Open link

The situation of females who identify as men/boys playing in men's and boy's sports and using men's restrooms, locker rooms is not comparable. Even when they are jacked up on testosterone, females are not competitive against males in sports - and females do not pose the same risks to males as males do to females. Because females do not sexually harass, grope, threaten, menace, stalk, assault, rape and kill adolescent and adult males at anywhere near the rates that males do these sorts of things to females. Females do not have organs analogous to penises that make it easy for us to rape. And if a female does rape or attempt to rape a male, he can't get pregnant - and he has a much better chance of fighting her off and getting away than when the tables are turned and a male is attempting to rape a female.

All that said, however, many boys and men are not comfortable having females in male communal toilets, especially ones with urinals, locker rooms, gym showers and such. In particular, lots of middle school and HS boys who are going through puberty and the usual awkwardness and self-consciousness of adolescence don't like the idea of having to urinate, get undressed and shower in the presence of female classmates and schoolmates they have grown up with and who they knew as bog-standard girls until just last year, last semester or last week when the girls started "identifying as" boys.

Let me hear you say that the overwhelming majority of trans people are good people, with no dodgy or nefarious aims, just trying to live their lives in peace and harmony with everybody else. They are not out to harm females or cheat in sports, etc. If your willing to say this, then we can engage on the merits and demerits of your and plans for implementation. If you can’t, there’s no point in engaging with you.

You mean, like there is no way for good Americans to know which Arab Muslim guys will commit acts of terror and which guys won't? So the easiest, most efficient way to maximize the Americans' safety from terrorism is to keep ALL Arab Muslim guys from entering the country, right? Which most Arab Muslim guys with an ounce of compassion and respect for Americans' safety understand, don't they?

Isn't that how the "travel ban" was justified?

Oh c'mon - what people say when responding to an anonymous online survey can't be taken as trustworthy.

As television's acerbic Dr Greg House used to say, "everybody lies." This is especially so when answering online surveys.

IIRC, one of the many flaws with the 2015 NCTE online survey of Americans who "identify as" trans is that an unusually high number of respondents - 39% - said they had one or more disabilities that impaired or eliminated their ability to do basic tasks of everyday life, compared with 15% of the general population. But confusingly, another part of the report presenting the results of the same survey said that 28% of respondents self-identified as “a person with a disability.”

Another problem with the 2015 NCTE survey is that quite a few respondents claimed to have taken "puberty blockers" as preteens and teens even though the ages they claimed to be when they took the survey meant they would have been long past puberty of adolescence when the use of "puberty blockers" in gender/sex distressed youngsters first became "a thing."

Also, many people under 30 or so today who "identify as" bisexual, pansexual and other nonheteroseuxal sexual orientations haven't had any or much sexual experiences with another person in the flesh. If they have had any sexual interactions with others, it's likely to be via sexting and other online communications. Many of them have decided they are bisexual, pansexual, lesbian, gay, ace, demisexual and so on depending on what kind of online porn, anime/hentai and other sexual materials they consume such as yaoi and fanfic about "shipping" and how they respond to it.

Sexologists say that many males who "identity as" women who claim they are bisexual are actually pseudobisexual. It's quite common for heterosexual males who "transition" to say that after they started suppressing their T and taking estrogen, they suddenly developed a brand new interest in having sex with men. But sexologists say this seems to be because they want the "validation" of their gender identities and expression that they believe would come from other males showing a willingness to have sex with them - not because they have now developed a newfound genuine attraction to other males.

Also, quite a few heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual males who "transition" are enamored of the idea of doing "sex work" for money because they think it's not only hot and sexy, but it's the most "feminine" and "womanly" and "gender affirming" thing they could possibly do. In fact, many of these males see getting penetrated, serving as "cxm buckets" and sucking cxck as women's main or sole purpose in life. But since very few female people go to prostitutes and are willing to pay males for sex, trans-identified males who do sex work inevitably end up selling sexual services exclusively to men even if they are not attracted to them.

Please explain in what sense Molly Cameron is a woman.

+ 100!

As my first message made abundantly clear, Mosier didn't win anything! Not even in age category! How can you read to this point and not realise that? Unless 144th in a duathlon is 'winning' to you? Please retract this utterly false statement.

So are you saying this is a different Chris Mosier?

Tell me you're not counting the "first place" finish in the *C and D-tier* of the *age graded* results? May as well narrow it down to the first finisher called Chris.

Regardless of your answer to that, it cannot be denied that Mosier's CV completely pales in comparison to the likes of Laurel Hubbard and Chelsea Wolfe reaching the Olympics and placing high at a world level, or Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges at a national level (and eventually world level). Mosier's drug-fuelled utterly mediocre blip of an unremarkable career is weaponised as a handy tool for those who would see biological men dominate women's sports.

RunRagged is talking about keeping men out of women's spaces. You are talking about keeping Arab Muslims out of a country which is not supposed to be reserved for any particular race, ethnic group, or religion. It's not really a valid comparison.

So???

Does that say anything about why Mosier transitioned? Does that say anything about why other trans people transitioned?

For people who supported the "travel ban", the USA was reserved for what they considered "real Americans", i.e. white Christians.

The point is that when making rules one should consider not just the intended effect but the unintended effects as well. If the justification for keeping men out of women's spaces is safety then that can be applied to tons of other cases. Lawyers and judges do this everyday. He could go further and say that homicide rates are higher among black Americans, so they should be kept out of white spaces in the name of safety. This is why it is important to be precise and specific in the wording of rules.

First, there is absolutely no evidence that permitting trans women to enter spaces like public bathrooms, locker rooms increases criminal acts in these spaces. It really doesn’t make sense that it would. Somebody with criminal intent is going to access the space when the intended victim is alone and vulnerable regardless if they are allowed in or not. Is it logical to think that being “permitted” to cross the threshold is key to the criminal act? Of course not. Keeping trans women out has no bearing on keeping the space safe. Isn’t this the argument of the gun lobby? We don’t want to restrict legal access to firearms of law abiding citizens because criminals are going to access them illegally anyway?

Why just limit access for trans women? The overwhelming majority of trans women are not criminals, right? I was reading that over 40% of lesbian women report being assaulted by another woman, often a partner. Are lesbian women more likely to commit sexual violence than straight women? Should they be banned from these spaces too?

Second, enforcing such a ban is very impractical if not impossible. How would it be done? Do women want to be asked to show their genitalia to prove they belong?

Third, it’s antithetical to the American system of law to prejudge criminal intent or assign risk to an entire group based on the acts of a very few. We don’t make policy or restrict people because they might do something they’ve not done. Even more importantly, we don’t restrict access to an entire group of people based on some theoretical risk, especially one that in reality is not present. I think this is the argument HJ is making.

From a legal standpoint I don’t see how it could ever be decided that trans men are allowed in the men’s room but trans women are not allowed in the women’s room. Do females want trans men in their spaces? How would you know if the person is a trans man and not simply a male? More genital inspections?

What about trans men and women who’ve had full gender altering surgery. Are they treated differently? Again, I don’t see how this would be legally defensible?

Ok, what about a solution? Some may argue that we do historically have men’s and women’s bathrooms and locker rooms. Well, from a legal standpoint I don’t think this is defensible. Makes much more sense to keep promoting gender neutral or gender less facilities that ensure adequate privacy or security for those that want it. Basing privacy and security concerns based on the sex or gender of a person is discriminatory. Taking RR’s comments that men or more dangerous than women as true, why should I, a man, be subjected to this danger in the locker room? I don’t want open showers either in my space. Better to have gender/sex neutral facilities that have private toilets, showers, changing rooms.

Does anybody disagree with this? There may be certain places like prisons where this strategy is unworkable, but overwhelmingly it seems like a solvable problem and without acrimony.

Singling out just trans women for exclusion is not defensible.

Yes, and those people have a fundamental misunderstanding of our country and our legal system, which is why everyone was appalled by it. That has nothing to do with allowing men in women's locker rooms.

That doesn't mean that your argument has merit. Females and males have some segregated spaces in nearly all cultures across history; that's also because male and female humans are a fact of material reality. They exist regardless of what one thinks about them. The category "American" is a culturally and historically-contingent category. It's a very different kind of thing than biological sex.

This is how postmodern, social constructionist arguments run amok. They force an untrue premise on the argument--that all knowledge is created by human beings, particularly through the language we use to describe things--then resort to language games. This is in addition to "idea cooties." RunRagged has a viewpoint on one narrow topic, allegedly shared by Marjorie Taylor Greene, so her idea is contaminated by association.

We're really in 2+2 = 5 territory here. Practitioners of the new secular religion don't believe in truth. They think that all truth claims are power moves, a belief that justifies their thirst for power. This is way beyond arguments about who should have access to what protections and spaces (though this is important). It's about what is and is not true and resisting people who want to force us to say and believe something that we know to be false.

No, you are missing the larger point. The very nature of human existence, in fact what makes humans special and unique as compared to all other flora and fauna, is that we have free will and can overcome biological determinism. That is in fact our special evolutionary gift and why we are such a successful species. You are selling humans short. That’s not a denial of reality, it is reality. Trans people are real, they exist regardless of what one thinks about them.

Across history like in the last 150 years? The public toilets in Roman Empire did not have any separation between sex, and it went out of style in the medieval age. The idea of public restroom did not become common until the Victorian age. In the US, there was no law to require sex separation of public rest rooms until 1880s.

And mixed sex public bathing was very common in Japan until mid-19th century, when the custom started to decline because of modern Western influence.

So the very idea of sex segregated communal bathrooms is culturally and historically contingent. That does not mean we should go back to mixed sex facilities. But why should we have sex-specific communal restrooms instead of single-unit unisex restrooms? There is not biological reason for that.