There is legitimate competition and then there are progressions that call legitimacy into question. Deflect all you want, but we always know.
So if/when Tuohy beats an accused-of-doping-by-astro Valby at NCAA XC what will we "know" then?
Tuohy is a very established runner who has been elite since she was a 7th grader. She didn’t come out of nowhere. She had a long and successful high school career with a setback near the end of high school with her knee injury/surgery but has made a steady and reasonable progression since then. Tuohy has not had any dramatic physical changes either. She has always been into weight training which has given her an edge in overall athleticism. She has a whole team of elite runners to train with and excellent coaching. There is no logical reason to doubt her results.
XC time conversion to track time are hard to figure. But running effectively a solo time trial, Valby beas Tuohy's time at Nuttycombe by nearly a minute. Makes Nationals interesting.
Not just a Tuohy. And Tuohy isn't the only title contender. Valby beat all runners in in the ncaa by nearly a minute or more so far this season.
On this subject there is a book called win at all costs about Solinsky and the Nike Oregon Project. Here is LR's write up about that book:
2) The book reveals that several of Jerry Schumacher’s athletes visited the now-banned Dr. Jeffrey Brown, with Salazar going so far as to credit Chris Solinsky’s 26:59 10,000 as the result of being on thyroid medication Hart writes that in August 2011, Salazar was asked how Chris Solinsky had gotten so good all of a sudden; the previous year, Solinsky had shocked the world by becoming the first non-African-born runner to break 27:00 for 10,000 meters. “It’s the thyroid,” Salazar said, before claiming that four other members of rival Nike coach Jerry Schumacher‘s group were on thyroid medication. According to Hart, after several of Salazar’s athletes found success after being placed on thyroid medication by Dr. Jeffrey Brown in Houston, there was internal pressure from Nike on Schumacher to send his athletes to Brown, which he did. The book also claims two of Schumacher’s top athletes, Solinsky and Matt Tegenkamp, were on “a high dose” of asthma drug Advair in 2013. Unlike Salazar, however, Schumacher grew skeptical about Dr. Brown’s diagnoses. It seemed statistically improbable to him that all of his star athletes would have similar medical problems. Eventually, Schumacher took action, telling his runners to see at least two doctors “outside the Nike ecosystem” to garner second and third opinions. “Jerry was like, Look, no, stop this right now, this doesn’t make that much sense to me,” Hart said on the LetsRun.com podcast.
On this subject there is a book called win at all costs about Solinsky and the Nike Oregon Project. Here is LR's write up about that book:
2) The book reveals that several of Jerry Schumacher’s athletes visited the now-banned Dr. Jeffrey Brown, with Salazar going so far as to credit Chris Solinsky’s 26:59 10,000 as the result of being on thyroid medication Hart writes that in August 2011, Salazar was asked how Chris Solinsky had gotten so good all of a sudden; the previous year, Solinsky had shocked the world by becoming the first non-African-born runner to break 27:00 for 10,000 meters. “It’s the thyroid,” Salazar said, before claiming that four other members of rival Nike coach Jerry Schumacher‘s group were on thyroid medication. According to Hart, after several of Salazar’s athletes found success after being placed on thyroid medication by Dr. Jeffrey Brown in Houston, there was internal pressure from Nike on Schumacher to send his athletes to Brown, which he did. The book also claims two of Schumacher’s top athletes, Solinsky and Matt Tegenkamp, were on “a high dose” of asthma drug Advair in 2013. Unlike Salazar, however, Schumacher grew skeptical about Dr. Brown’s diagnoses. It seemed statistically improbable to him that all of his star athletes would have similar medical problems. Eventually, Schumacher took action, telling his runners to see at least two doctors “outside the Nike ecosystem” to garner second and third opinions. “Jerry was like, Look, no, stop this right now, this doesn’t make that much sense to me,” Hart said on the LetsRun.com podcast.
There is legitimate competition and then there are progressions that call legitimacy into question. Deflect all you want, but we always know.
She has a normal progression. Her progression is THE SAME AS TUOHY'S.
As a junior in high school she ran 10:10 and was undertrained. Compare that to Tuohy's 9:53 training at high mileage. Then Valby was hit with injuries but Tuohy literally got surgery on her knee - so she was affected less by injury than Tuohy.
Valby ran 19:41 in 2021 compared to Tuohy's best of 19:43 at Nationals (Valby was only 7 seconds behind Tuohy at Nationals in 2021).
Valby ran 8:53 indoors compared to Tuohy's 8:54. Valby appeared to have more injuries. Then at NCAA's Tuohy ran 15:18 and Valby ran 15:20.
It is the exact same progression. Here is a video of her 10:10 from 2019 - in FLORIDA high temperatures and high humidity. Running form is really bad, you can tell she's had basically no coaching.
JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA -- East Lake junior Parker Valby started strong and ran away with the FHSAA Class 3A 3200m state championship on Friday, hitting a state record of 10:10.45 to surge past competition. Mater Academy\'s Val...
Nice screen name. Hope you are not the coach. That would be sad. And same progression since 7th grade? LOL. Cool. Her "progression" was to suddenly run massive prs in college out of the blue over and over and over. No fatigue. No inconsistency. No burn out. Just over and over. Break. Major PRs. Repeat.
And putting aside her progression. You suddenly run a 14:51 rated time coming back from injury? 30 seconds faster than your major successive prs months earlier? That is entering BTC/NOP territory, something her coach just happens to know all about.
So if/when Tuohy beats an accused-of-doping-by-astro Valby at NCAA XC what will we "know" then?
Tuohy is a very established runner who has been elite since she was a 7th grader. She didn’t come out of nowhere. She had a long and successful high school career with a setback near the end of high school with her knee injury/surgery but has made a steady and reasonable progression since then. Tuohy has not had any dramatic physical changes either. She has always been into weight training which has given her an edge in overall athleticism. She has a whole team of elite runners to train with and excellent coaching. There is no logical reason to doubt her results.
Who said I doubt Tuohy's results? Unless she was doping as a 10th grader (you'd have to be sick to think so), she's been solid. Her steep improvement happened from 9th to 10th grade, about 5-6 years after she started running. Since then injury cycle hampered her, but she is improving nicely for someone who ran 15:37 as a 10th grader. She's going to get a lot better in the next few years.
Valby seems to be still in the steeper part of the improvement curve. As far as I can tell from Athletic.net, she has only been running for about 5-6 years, so she's hitting that sweet spot where the big drops come simultaneous to being in college where you get higher level coaching, amplifying the effect. Plus she was out for the last two years but may have been getting more aerobically fit. We'd have to know whether she was effectively cross training. What looks like a huge one year drop is really a huge three year drop.
I see both Tuohy and Valby running at least 1450s in the track season. Would not be surprised at all if either or both of them broke into the 1440s. And maybe Cook threatening sub 1500 as well. It's a different world. Don't forget that Tuohy's HS 1537 was before supershoes. With the shoes 15:14 seems like underperformance, but 4:06 1500m tells me that 15:14 won't last long.
Here is a video of her 10:10 from 2019 - in FLORIDA high temperatures and high humidity. Running form is really bad, you can tell she's had basically no coaching.
And we are going with the tried and true "undertrained" excuse? It is a cliche. Bottom line an athlete has an extremely suspicious progression. Ran a highly suspect time indicative of doping. And runs for a coach that is dirty as a doorknob, who came directly out of NOP and clearly doped in his own career. Accuse me of being a fan of another athlete, one for whom there are no questions or rotten associations. Does not change how laughably obvious and pathetic this is. This coach should have never been allowed anywhere near a college program. Once a cheater, always a cheater. I mean Dr. Brown. Geez. The rotten fruit never falls far from the tree.
There is legitimate competition and then there are progressions that call legitimacy into question. Deflect all you want, but we always know.
She has a normal progression. Her progression is THE SAME AS TUOHY'S.
As a junior in high school she ran 10:10 and was undertrained. Compare that to Tuohy's 9:53 training at high mileage. Then Valby was hit with injuries but Tuohy literally got surgery on her knee - so she was affected less by injury than Tuohy.
Valby ran 19:41 in 2021 compared to Tuohy's best of 19:43 at Nationals (Valby was only 7 seconds behind Tuohy at Nationals in 2021).
Valby ran 8:53 indoors compared to Tuohy's 8:54. Valby appeared to have more injuries. Then at NCAA's Tuohy ran 15:18 and Valby ran 15:20.
It is the exact same progression. Here is a video of her 10:10 from 2019 - in FLORIDA high temperatures and high humidity. Running form is really bad, you can tell she's had basically no coaching.
They are not on the same progression at all. Tuohy was much faster in high school than Valby. Katelyn ran a 4:33 mile vs. Valby a 4:50 1600 and Tuohy’s 9:01 3k indoors converts much better than 9:53 3200. Don’t even get me started about the 3 NXN titles. And all the XC course records on difficult and historical courses. There is no telling what she would have run in high school if her knee injury had not happened. Now, on the other hand, Valby turns up at UF and starts throwing down these crazy times out of nowhere. Cuts MINUTES off her 5k time. Looks completely different. Yeah there are going to be questions…
Got real quiet in the apologist section when I pointed out the coache's very sordid history. And none of this had to happen. UF just needed not to be pigs about it, be under the radar. I would have just quietly harbored suspicions, but assumed that no one could be this reckless. But they can never help it. It is almost pathological.
She has a normal progression. Her progression is THE SAME AS TUOHY'S.
As a junior in high school she ran 10:10 and was undertrained. Compare that to Tuohy's 9:53 training at high mileage. Then Valby was hit with injuries but Tuohy literally got surgery on her knee - so she was affected less by injury than Tuohy.
Valby ran 19:41 in 2021 compared to Tuohy's best of 19:43 at Nationals (Valby was only 7 seconds behind Tuohy at Nationals in 2021).
Valby ran 8:53 indoors compared to Tuohy's 8:54. Valby appeared to have more injuries. Then at NCAA's Tuohy ran 15:18 and Valby ran 15:20.
It is the exact same progression. Here is a video of her 10:10 from 2019 - in FLORIDA high temperatures and high humidity. Running form is really bad, you can tell she's had basically no coaching.
They are not on the same progression at all. Tuohy was much faster in high school than Valby. Katelyn ran a 4:33 mile vs. Valby a 4:50 1600 and Tuohy’s 9:01 3k indoors converts much better than 9:53 3200. Don’t even get me started about the 3 NXN titles. And all the XC course records on difficult and historical courses. There is no telling what she would have run in high school if her knee injury had not happened. Now, on the other hand, Valby turns up at UF and starts throwing down these crazy times out of nowhere. Cuts MINUTES off her 5k time. Looks completely different. Yeah there are going to be questions…
Retarded take. Tuohy, according to Wikipedia, started training when she was 10. She was 7 years into her training when she ran 9:01. Has Valby even been training for 7 years up until now?
hjkjsahdjkha wrote:. Tuohy, according to Wikipedia, started training when she was 10. She was 7 years into her training when she ran 9:01. Has Valby even been training for 7 years up until now?
Tuohy's first season of track was age 12, 7th grade. She broke the 5 minute mile that season. She played soccer before that.
They are not on the same progression at all. Tuohy was much faster in high school than Valby. Katelyn ran a 4:33 mile vs. Valby a 4:50 1600 and Tuohy’s 9:01 3k indoors converts much better than 9:53 3200. Don’t even get me started about the 3 NXN titles. And all the XC course records on difficult and historical courses. There is no telling what she would have run in high school if her knee injury had not happened. Now, on the other hand, Valby turns up at UF and starts throwing down these crazy times out of nowhere. Cuts MINUTES off her 5k time. Looks completely different. Yeah there are going to be questions…
Retarded take. Tuohy, according to Wikipedia, started training when she was 10. She was 7 years into her training when she ran 9:01. Has Valby even been training for 7 years up until now?
She only ran in some community fun runs at that age. Started track in 7th grade and broke 5 min in the mile off very limited training. Did not take it very seriously. Did not start XC until 8th grade (played soccer). Go listen to Emma Abrahamson’s interview with her and get your facts straight.
You're mostly right about doping but the Tuohy worship in this thread is not doing you any favors. And whatever you think about Valby, you of all people should know that if she is doping, it's not like she doesn't have plenty of company. Pretty naive to assume that it only starts once these athletes go pro...
Like I said, it may be the fastest official NCAA women's 6k time. The course is fast and was built to be fast. And other times from the course suggest that it could be time trialed at a very fast clip if a fast athlete so intended. But still, h'm.
At the risk of being antisocial, it is a curious pattern. Last year after a good but not great showing at XC nationals, Valby after a few months downtime suddenly runs a very fast 3000m indoor PR. Then she takes time off again, comes back and suddenly is running huge progressive 5000m PRs and does not seem to suffer by the repeated efforts. Then she has another down period and suddenly runs a huge 6K xc PR. And loke other UF athletes she looks positively jacked. Curious indeed.
Astro it does sound as if you have a huge crush on this girl. Like HUGE. Maybe this is almost an American Beauty movie scenario. Like are you going through a mid life crisis?
I don’t know, being regularly injured is actually the opposite of what I would expect from someone doping.
Agreed that Solinski’s results were sus. I think the world is a little more complicated than that perfectly equating to anyone he coaches is on the juice though.
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