I’m not sure. A poster “former sub 14” or something like that had a friend who worked out with them for a stint in flagstaff. He said they pretty much rand the same speed for all intervals. I think they do longer in the AM and shorter in the PM due to fatigue.
My sense is they are working on improving LT2/CS with all these workouts.
As the other poster said, the hills are VO2 work. So they have 2 days dedicated to large volume pushing up LT and 1 pushing VO2 (and also ensuring they don’t completely lose ability to produce lactate…they are 1500 runners).
Interestingly the Schumacher base period is a large volume threshold workout and a VO2 workout (200s with short rest are essentially Billat 30/30s). Obviously the specifics are different but there is some similarity
@shirtboy2022, thank you very much for your advice. The data comes from being tested in a lab. I really appreciate your putting numbers to the LT1 and LT2 ranges based off of my personal numbers. I do workouts like 4 mile tempos that get me into the LT2 range. Also, I do workouts like 7 mile marathon pace runs that are in the LT1 range. I can definitely relate to the observations you provided on how the HR creeps up.
The Bakken article seems to say that runners like himself before and Jakob Ingebrigtsen today spend more time in a certain range in order to do a huge amount of 'threshold training'. Is Bakken referring to the LT1 or LT2 range?
To add on to everything that’s been laid out before, which has been really good, ppl have to remember ‘double threshold’ is not the same workout in the same day, it’s a different but similar stimulus in the same day.
That first threshold is always the same 6min reps keeping the lactate under 2.2-2.5 depending where you see (bakken recently hinted 2.2). now bear in mind this is on a Lactate Pro 2 which converts to probably 1.7-2.0 on your us available lactate plus. 1.7-2.0 is very much around lt1.
now, you get the evening threshold, 1000s/400s keeping under 3.2-3.5 mmol. Thats an lt2 workout or ‘threshold’ workout in the colloquial or Daniels sense of the term.
Your using that first workout to springboard to the second and get a very controlled stimulus and volume.
if anything i bet they are more worried about being ‘over’ on the morning workout than ‘over’ on the evening workout
Hey, that was really a very good post! :)
A very good point. And this way to handle the days double threshold reminds me of the great Italian wonder with Alberto Cova , Salvatore Antibo and so on.......
Some days they ran "a light" LT tempo run in the morning and later in the evening a faster LT interval at higher lactate level . So , this is why I point out that Bakkens` and the Ingebrigtsens` approach is not something new as many seem to believe. There are alot of very good training technics from the past that comes back , only in a new packaging.
Then we can of course discuss if this with double thresholds is the best way to train the so called lactate threshold when there are so many other world top runners who don`t do them . But that`s probably a seed to another thread........ :)
@shirtboy2022, thank you very much for your advice. The data comes from being tested in a lab. I really appreciate your putting numbers to the LT1 and LT2 ranges based off of my personal numbers. I do workouts like 4 mile tempos that get me into the LT2 range. Also, I do workouts like 7 mile marathon pace runs that are in the LT1 range. I can definitely relate to the observations you provided on how the HR creeps up.
The Bakken article seems to say that runners like himself before and Jakob Ingebrigtsen today spend more time in a certain range in order to do a huge amount of 'threshold training'. Is Bakken referring to the LT1 or LT2 range?
To add on to everything that’s been laid out before, which has been really good, ppl have to remember ‘double threshold’ is not the same workout in the same day, it’s a different but similar stimulus in the same day.
That first threshold is always the same 6min reps keeping the lactate under 2.2-2.5 depending where you see (bakken recently hinted 2.2). now bear in mind this is on a Lactate Pro 2 which converts to probably 1.7-2.0 on your us available lactate plus. 1.7-2.0 is very much around lt1.
now, you get the evening threshold, 1000s/400s keeping under 3.2-3.5 mmol. Thats an lt2 workout or ‘threshold’ workout in the colloquial or Daniels sense of the term.
Your using that first workout to springboard to the second and get a very controlled stimulus and volume.
if anything i bet they are more worried about being ‘over’ on the morning workout than ‘over’ on the evening workout
@unbelief, thank you for clarifying! That helped a lot.
I’m not sure. A poster “former sub 14” or something like that had a friend who worked out with them for a stint in flagstaff. He said they pretty much rand the same speed for all intervals. I think they do longer in the AM and shorter in the PM due to fatigue.
My sense is they are working on improving LT2/CS with all these workouts.
As the other poster said, the hills are VO2 work. So they have 2 days dedicated to large volume pushing up LT and 1 pushing VO2 (and also ensuring they don’t completely lose ability to produce lactate…they are 1500 runners).
Interestingly the Schumacher base period is a large volume threshold workout and a VO2 workout (200s with short rest are essentially Billat 30/30s). Obviously the specifics are different but there is some similarity
certainly possible but ive seen many places the split, and you even hear it ftom their tv show.
kalle berglund had a pdf from his coach and h igebris IG he has essentially shown the longer intervals well under 3.
How would a hobbyjogger go about this? 4 threshold sessions would be too much, but 2 longer sessions are doable. A double threshold session on one day, or 2 sessions over separate days?
How would a hobbyjogger go about this? 4 threshold sessions would be too much, but 2 longer sessions are doable. A double threshold session on one day, or 2 sessions over separate days?
A hobbyjogger would not do double threshold days. See their brothers strava
I’m not sure. A poster “former sub 14” or something like that had a friend who worked out with them for a stint in flagstaff. He said they pretty much rand the same speed for all intervals. I think they do longer in the AM and shorter in the PM due to fatigue.
My sense is they are working on improving LT2/CS with all these workouts.
As the other poster said, the hills are VO2 work. So they have 2 days dedicated to large volume pushing up LT and 1 pushing VO2 (and also ensuring they don’t completely lose ability to produce lactate…they are 1500 runners).
Interestingly the Schumacher base period is a large volume threshold workout and a VO2 workout (200s with short rest are essentially Billat 30/30s). Obviously the specifics are different but there is some similarity
One thing that makes me think this isnt correct is the relative intensity changes of running all at the same pace. That means the workout in the morning is the hardest and the evening is easier.
Bakken et al are trying to say you do double threshold to push the second workout. You cant push that second workout if that first workout was also 'on'
Think about these workouts as far as ratios, especially work to rest.
5x6 min w/1:00
10x3:00 w/1:00
20x:64 w/:30R
These are rough estimates, but you have 6:1, 3:1, 2:1. To keep the same lactate response the 2:1 has to be faster than the 6:1/6:1 has to be slower than the 2:1. Even if you were trying to keep the same level, say 3.0-3.2 mmol for both morning and evening, the 2K ish work has to be slower than a 400m with the work to rest ratio.
Which is why many have broken it down (and this is assuming the morning is a different level as well):
AM: 5-6 x6 min @ 'marathon' pace
PM: 10x1000 @ HM pace w/1:00R or 20x400m @ 10k w/:30R
AM always the same, PM always the same physiological stimulus (3.0-3.2 mmol) but playing with the speed and distance to accomplish this, and always using the evening to be right on LT2
How would a hobbyjogger go about this? 4 threshold sessions would be too much, but 2 longer sessions are doable. A double threshold session on one day, or 2 sessions over separate days?
A hobbyjogger would not do double threshold days. See their brothers strava
Exactly, their brother does like 3x Threshold (LT2 only) per week. Pretty much Tue/Thu/Sat. 'Long" Sunday. Easy S M/W/F
If you're going to do double thresholds, you need to be pretty crazy about recovering and stress management
How would a hobbyjogger go about this? 4 threshold sessions would be too much, but 2 longer sessions are doable. A double threshold session on one day, or 2 sessions over separate days?
Find their brothers strava profile to see how this is implemented for a serious hobby jogger.
Yeah I agree there is probably some variation. But I don’t know if it is as much as people are saying. As you say their brother does 3 threshold days, but his paces are the same despite varying rep lengths.
You also mention he is targeting LT2 in all workouts…many lactate values he gets are <2. I would guess that the 5-6 x 2k or 3 x 3k workouts he is doing is similar to the AM workouts of the brothers
You would need to write down a week of 4 threshold sessions and the x workout. You are changing the recovery (you get like 12 hours between workouts instead of 6) but by the same token the 3rd workout comes sooner... I don't think it is a win.
How would a hobbyjogger go about this? 4 threshold sessions would be too much, but 2 longer sessions are doable. A double threshold session on one day, or 2 sessions over separate days?
I’ve been doing ~3 LT sessions a week.
Monday 5x6 min at marathon pace
Tueaday 7x3 min on/1:30 off at 10k pace, 3-4x 1 min on/2 min off (5k-mile pace)
Thursday varies but usually 5 miles at half marathon pace
Saturday is around 2 miles total of “VO2” pace repeats. Wednesday and Friday are very easy pace, and Sundays are off. It’s not perfect, but I’ve been enjoying it.
A lot of people in this thread are getting so hung up on the threshold work and lactate levels of the Ingebrigstens but forgetting the fact that he is absolutely flooding his legs with lactate during his weekly hill session, albeit for very short bouts.
Is this perhaps where the true magic lies? Is having one day per week during the base phase with very high lactate levels and muscular stress (from the hills), and the rest of the week with highly controlled lactate levels, achieve something that threshold training on its own does not?
A lot of people in this thread are getting so hung up on the threshold work and lactate levels of the Ingebrigstens but forgetting the fact that he is absolutely flooding his legs with lactate during his weekly hill session, albeit for very short bouts.
Is this perhaps where the true magic lies? Is having one day per week during the base phase with very high lactate levels and muscular stress (from the hills), and the rest of the week with highly controlled lactate levels, achieve something that threshold training on its own does not?
Doubt he's going over 8.0 mmol in those sessions. Probably staying in the 4-6.0 range.
To your point, i think we've seen a lot of different programs out there from different disciplines showing a lot more attention to building VO2 in the base phase to give your self some 'space' to grow into for your threshold. The higher that ceiling the higher you can raise the floors of your thresholds underneath it to be able to increase your effective threshold speed.
So having a day a week or so where you are carefully building your engine while limiting your injury potential is well worth your time and is not going to encroach on your races. It would make sense too, many times trying to boost your VO2 around or in your race season usually leaves you with better workouts that dont translate to the start line.
A lot of people in this thread are getting so hung up on the threshold work and lactate levels of the Ingebrigstens but forgetting the fact that he is absolutely flooding his legs with lactate during his weekly hill session, albeit for very short bouts.
Is this perhaps where the true magic lies? Is having one day per week during the base phase with very high lactate levels and muscular stress (from the hills), and the rest of the week with highly controlled lactate levels, achieve something that threshold training on its own does not?
Every running program I can think of (besides Tinman) does this. I know Salazar was very outspoken about doing speed work year round.
I can't think of a current program outside of the Ingebrigstens who do double threshold.
A lot of people in this thread are getting so hung up on the threshold work and lactate levels of the Ingebrigstens but forgetting the fact that he is absolutely flooding his legs with lactate during his weekly hill session, albeit for very short bouts.
Is this perhaps where the true magic lies? Is having one day per week during the base phase with very high lactate levels and muscular stress (from the hills), and the rest of the week with highly controlled lactate levels, achieve something that threshold training on its own does not?
Of far more importance is their HR on recovery runs <125. and this includes walking up steep hills. Sub 330 1500 / sub 13 5k types here and they are absolutely jogging their recovery. Same with Daniel Do Nascimento - 206 guy, runs recovery runs at 815-9 min per mile pace.
No, it's not possible.Your lactate threshold is about 4.00 mmol/ l even if you are an elite runner.The difference is more like the elite runner can hold a significant high speed even at 2.5 - 3.5 mmol/ l.And the main thing out of this that training the lactate threshold is most effective in the range of 2.5- 4.0 mmol/ l.What many forget when it comes to training and physiology is that the basics are the same even if you are a hobby jogger or a world top runner.Some tend to think that the world's best runners bodies must function in a different way, but they don't . 🧙♂️
This idea of a 'fixed' physiology just shows your lack of understanding on the topic.
So top level athlete do metabolic profiling why? So they can support the cost of lab equipment for high end sports scientists?
Your physiology is constantly changing and responding to stimulus you give it. Again, why would people periodize your training if you at the end you're going to be just like joe hobbyjogger at the line when it matters?
Jakob is raising his profile or ceiling during his "base" phase with all the double threshold and hill work (which is just VO2 work in disguise) until the competition phase where he starts to work on economization at shorter distances as he tries to 'push up' all the speeds at which his thresholds and critical speeds are occurring. LT and VO2 are put into 'maintenance' in this final period as racing and glycolytic power are becoming more and more important for race fitness.
When you see the schedules, his race period you start seeing a double threshold here and there, some single thresholds, some 400's @ 5k/vo2 pace and a lot more 300's/400's likely with full rests trying to stay under 10.0 mmol.
This is why he keeps saying again and again 'im a better 5k runner than 1500, always have been' because that is exactly the system they run and the profile he now has metabolically
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