What are you on about? Yes he did. At the time he won them, prior to the inaugural World Champs in 83, the bi-annual World Cup and European Cup competitions were the most important events outside of the Olympics. You only have to look at the names of the winners in the 81 World Cup to see that the very best took part and the quality of the athletes that won was greater than the 80 Olympic champions in many events.
I'm a little puzzled how a 1.47 runner over the 800 can run a 3.46 mile a week later. How is it that the fastest 1500/milers now are frequently utterly pedestrian over the 800?
Van Diepen who won the 800m in Bergen in high 1:46 ran a low 1:44 the week before and also a low 1:44 a week later. The windy conditions in Bergen obviously didn´t promote good 800m times.
Jakob ran 1:46.48 two years ago and he has possibly potential to run at least 1:45 under good conditions.
So he runs to his potential over the longer distance but not over the shorter distance? It is nonetheless interesting that as an 800m runner in the ballpark of Herb Elliott he is nonetheless 8 secs faster over a mile. Elliott was also famed for his endurance. But I guess running up and down sandhills was a poor substitute for modern Norwegian training. And whatever else a modern runner finds helpful.
Van Diepen who won the 800m in Bergen in high 1:46 ran a low 1:44 the week before and also a low 1:44 a week later. The windy conditions in Bergen obviously didn´t promote good 800m times.
Jakob ran 1:46.48 two years ago and he has possibly potential to run at least 1:45 under good conditions.
So he runs to his potential over the longer distance but not over the shorter distance? It is nonetheless interesting that as an 800m runner in the ballpark of Herb Elliott he is nonetheless 8 secs faster over a mile. Elliott was also famed for his endurance. But I guess running up and down sandhills was a poor substitute for modern Norwegian training. And whatever else a modern runner finds helpful.
Havn't you not even read the comment to which you are replying?
Yes, the 800 is pretty fickle when it comes to times. Wind, positioning and pacing play a huge role. Jakob I think could have run 1:45 mid at least if he'd gotten in the right race last summer. But if he only races it once in a while without specific preparation, the results won't necessarily indicate his top-end ability.
So he runs to his potential over the longer distance but not over the shorter distance? It is nonetheless interesting that as an 800m runner in the ballpark of Herb Elliott he is nonetheless 8 secs faster over a mile. Elliott was also famed for his endurance. But I guess running up and down sandhills was a poor substitute for modern Norwegian training. And whatever else a modern runner finds helpful.
Havn't you not even read the comment to which you are replying?
It seems you haven't. The implication is that he is much faster over than the times he has so far recorded over 800. Not until he runs faster - a problem he doesn't have over the longer races.
Yes, the 800 is pretty fickle when it comes to times. Wind, positioning and pacing play a huge role. Jakob I think could have run 1:45 mid at least if he'd gotten in the right race last summer. But if he only races it once in a while without specific preparation, the results won't necessarily indicate his top-end ability.
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
Yes, the 800 is pretty fickle when it comes to times. Wind, positioning and pacing play a huge role. Jakob I think could have run 1:45 mid at least if he'd gotten in the right race last summer. But if he only races it once in a while without specific preparation, the results won't necessarily indicate his top-end ability.
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
You are obviously implying that it is unnatural and due to PEDs. That is what you are saying. However, where you are possibly incorrect is you thinking Jakob could not get near 1:45. It appears to me that Jakob is NOT contesting these few 800m races in an attempt to please you or me. He appears to be utilizing them as very intense sharpening workouts. I believe Jakob generally trains right through them. I also believe he is running hard, taking it seriously as an intense workout or race, if you will. But it is somewhat apples to oranges when you compare this to how he treats some of his 1500m and 5000m races, so you assume too much about his ability from these scattered 800m efforts. They being said, I am not suggesting he is clean.
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
You are obviously implying that it is unnatural and due to PEDs. That is what you are saying. However, where you are possibly incorrect is you thinking Jakob could not get near 1:45. It appears to me that Jakob is NOT contesting these few 800m races in an attempt to please you or me. He appears to be utilizing them as very intense sharpening workouts. I believe Jakob generally trains right through them. I also believe he is running hard, taking it seriously as an intense workout or race, if you will. But it is somewhat apples to oranges when you compare this to how he treats some of his 1500m and 5000m races, so you assume too much about his ability from these scattered 800m efforts. They being said, I am not suggesting he is clean.
To put his efforts in another perspective, without the benefits of modern tracks and shoes his current best times for the 800 would be in the region of 1.48-49 on dirt or grass. There is no way that in the era of Snell, Ryun (1.44 and sub 1.45 on grass and dirt tracks respectively) and Walker (1.44.9 for the 800) a runner that slow could be the best miler of that generation. (Elliott's best would be 1.45-46 today). The 1500/mile required some basic speed. But not today. As I said previously, there is nothing to suggest he has much faster 800 times in the tank. He wasn't jogging those races. He just looks like it - because he is slow.
Yes, the 800 is pretty fickle when it comes to times. Wind, positioning and pacing play a huge role. Jakob I think could have run 1:45 mid at least if he'd gotten in the right race last summer. But if he only races it once in a while without specific preparation, the results won't necessarily indicate his top-end ability.
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
You are an imbecile. Why would you expect Ingebrigtsen to be running his best in a one-off race used as training to prepare for the Dream Mile, 6 weeks from when he should be in peak shape? He’s also miles ahead of everyone you mentioned at 5k and even 3k, so why wouldn’t he be slower at 800 given all of them are fairly close at 1500?
And please don’t start with this “you’re only as fast as your PR” nonsense. You were spewing this same garbage last year about Hocker and then looked like a moron when he ran 3:31. Who would’ve guessed a guy closing 3:35s in 52 had more in the tank? Oh that’s right, everyone but you. If you consider Ingebrigtsen’s race in context maybe you’ll figure it out.
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
You are an imbecile. Why would you expect Ingebrigtsen to be running his best in a one-off race used as training to prepare for the Dream Mile, 6 weeks from when he should be in peak shape? He’s also miles ahead of everyone you mentioned at 5k and even 3k, so why wouldn’t he be slower at 800 given all of them are fairly close at 1500?
And please don’t start with this “you’re only as fast as your PR” nonsense. You were spewing this same garbage last year about Hocker and then looked like a moron when he ran 3:31. Who would’ve guessed a guy closing 3:35s in 52 had more in the tank? Oh that’s right, everyone but you. If you consider Ingebrigtsen’s race in context maybe you’ll figure it out.
Remind me of the many other occasions that he has run faster than 1.47 (or 1.49 on dirt without modern shoes). Remind me also of the best 5k exponents who were also the best milers of their generation (and Keino's altitude-fluke at Mexico doesn't count, as Ryun had it all over him at sea-level).
(I didn't say Hocker was only capable of 3.35 but that he wasn't faster until he ran faster. He was nowhere the 3.28 many here predicted. I must say, however, he's really come through for you since the Olympics).
Havn't you not even read the comment to which you are replying?
It seems you haven't. The implication is that he is much faster over than the times he has so far recorded over 800. Not until he runs faster - a problem he doesn't have over the longer races.
How many 800s has he run in the last four seasons? Two.
In Bergen, the conditions were very bad, this was the point you havn't understood.
You are an imbecile. Why would you expect Ingebrigtsen to be running his best in a one-off race used as training to prepare for the Dream Mile, 6 weeks from when he should be in peak shape? He’s also miles ahead of everyone you mentioned at 5k and even 3k, so why wouldn’t he be slower at 800 given all of them are fairly close at 1500?
And please don’t start with this “you’re only as fast as your PR” nonsense. You were spewing this same garbage last year about Hocker and then looked like a moron when he ran 3:31. Who would’ve guessed a guy closing 3:35s in 52 had more in the tank? Oh that’s right, everyone but you. If you consider Ingebrigtsen’s race in context maybe you’ll figure it out.
Remind me of the many other occasions that he has run faster than 1.47 (or 1.49 on dirt without modern shoes). Remind me also of the best 5k exponents who were also the best milers of their generation (and Keino's altitude-fluke at Mexico doesn't count, as Ryun had it all over him at sea-level).
(I didn't say Hocker was only capable of 3.35 but that he wasn't faster until he ran faster. He was nowhere the 3.28 many here predicted. I must say, however, he's really come through for you since the Olympics).
Yes, the 800 is pretty fickle when it comes to times. Wind, positioning and pacing play a huge role. Jakob I think could have run 1:45 mid at least if he'd gotten in the right race last summer. But if he only races it once in a while without specific preparation, the results won't necessarily indicate his top-end ability.
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
You really have a rigid mind!
I have been writing about this subject in another thread and will try to elaborate here:
1. You aren´t running fast when the weather conditions are bad!.
Van Diepen who won in Bergen in 1:46.56 has both before and after run low 1:44; most lately new PB in Paris in 1:44.14.
Australian Deng who ran 1:46.77 in Bergen has afterwards run mid 1:44 in France.
Don´t you think Jakob could have run 1.5 seconds faster under better weather conditions? Especially considering he already 2 years ago ran 1:46.48 at 19.
2. It is VERY unlikely that you realize your potential if you only run one 800m every second or third year.
Even the 800m specialists normally needs time to run their season best:
Van Diepen´s season starter was a 1:47.10. (In California).
Bryce Hoppel´s 1:47.27. I took 3 runs before Hoppel broke 1:46.
I will let yourself judge Brazier´s season opener!
Frenchman Bosse ran 1:44.54 in DL Paris braking 1:47 for the first time this year in his 4th try.
Don´t you think Jakob would improve equally if he ran some more competitions?
3. And especially if he did some specific training for the 800m.
4. All my old heroes Snell, Coe, Owett and Cram were typically 800m/ 1500m runners so they probably trained specifically for the 800m and therefore realized more of their potential.
5. The shoes: Jakob ran 1:49.40 in 2017 at 16 with the "old" shoes so you can´t use the shoes as a way do further downgrade his performances.
6. In your answer to THOUGHTSLEADER´S statement that Jakob could have run at least 1:45 mid last summer you state that Jakob can´t improve with "a couple of seconds". That is misleading as he only has to improve his 2020 time 1:46.48 with ONE second to hit mid 1:45.
Remind me of the many other occasions that he has run faster than 1.47 (or 1.49 on dirt without modern shoes). Remind me also of the best 5k exponents who were also the best milers of their generation (and Keino's altitude-fluke at Mexico doesn't count, as Ryun had it all over him at sea-level).
(I didn't say Hocker was only capable of 3.35 but that he wasn't faster until he ran faster. He was nowhere the 3.28 many here predicted. I must say, however, he's really come through for you since the Olympics).
Jakob ran 1:46.44 as a 19-year old.
Ryun ran 1.44.3 (on dirt) as a 19 year-old. Amos ran 1.41.7x as an 18 year-old. Neither ran any faster.
It seems you haven't. The implication is that he is much faster over than the times he has so far recorded over 800. Not until he runs faster - a problem he doesn't have over the longer races.
How many 800s has he run in the last four seasons? Two.
In Bergen, the conditions were very bad, this was the point you havn't understood.
Is JI doping? I don't know. Same as you.
You are the most arrogant poster on this board.
So it is "arrogance" to question how a runner who is relatively very slow over the 800 can still be the best 1500 runner in the world?
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
You really have a rigid mind!
I have been writing about this subject in another thread and will try to elaborate here:
1. You aren´t running fast when the weather conditions are bad!.
Van Diepen who won in Bergen in 1:46.56 has both before and after run low 1:44; most lately new PB in Paris in 1:44.14.
Australian Deng who ran 1:46.77 in Bergen has afterwards run mid 1:44 in France.
Don´t you think Jakob could have run 1.5 seconds faster under better weather conditions? Especially considering he already 2 years ago ran 1:46.48 at 19.
2. It is VERY unlikely that you realize your potential if you only run one 800m every second or third year.
Even the 800m specialists normally needs time to run their season best:
Van Diepen´s season starter was a 1:47.10. (In California).
Bryce Hoppel´s 1:47.27. I took 3 runs before Hoppel broke 1:46.
I will let yourself judge Brazier´s season opener!
Frenchman Bosse ran 1:44.54 in DL Paris braking 1:47 for the first time this year in his 4th try.
Don´t you think Jakob would improve equally if he ran some more competitions?
3. And especially if he did some specific training for the 800m.
4. All my old heroes Snell, Coe, Owett and Cram were typically 800m/ 1500m runners so they probably trained specifically for the 800m and therefore realized more of their potential.
5. The shoes: Jakob ran 1:49.40 in 2017 at 16 with the "old" shoes so you can´t use the shoes as a way do further downgrade his performances.
6. In your answer to THOUGHTSLEADER´S statement that Jakob could have run at least 1:45 mid last summer you state that Jakob can´t improve with "a couple of seconds". That is misleading as he only has to improve his 2020 time 1:46.48 with ONE second to hit mid 1:45.
Love how you completely ignore Objectobservers post. Two of the runners in the same meet has run 2 seconds faster after the meet. This was just a random meet for Jakob and nothing that he peaked for. If you don’t understand this you need to permanently stop watching T&F and rather take up knitting.
The 800 wasn't fickle for Snell, Coe, Ovett, Cram and even Cheryuiot. All were consistently fast. Ingebrigtsen isn't. In that he is more likely in the company of a certain 3.26x 1500 runner who acknowledged he couldn't beat 1.46 tops. There is nothing in Jakob's performances to suggest he could get near 1.45. How many other runners would you say are really a couple of seconds faster over the 800 than what they have run? That is a very big margin at that distance, and a 1.45 guy is another league of speed over a 1.46.4 runner. It's not much different from suggesting Jakob is 3-4 secs faster over the 1500/mile than his current best. But my point is that it appears to be an increasing feature of md exponents (since El G et al) that a runner who hasn't bettered 1.46-47 can nonetheless put two 1.53's back to back.
You really have a rigid mind!
I have been writing about this subject in another thread and will try to elaborate here:
1. You aren´t running fast when the weather conditions are bad!.
Van Diepen who won in Bergen in 1:46.56 has both before and after run low 1:44; most lately new PB in Paris in 1:44.14.
Australian Deng who ran 1:46.77 in Bergen has afterwards run mid 1:44 in France.
Don´t you think Jakob could have run 1.5 seconds faster under better weather conditions? Especially considering he already 2 years ago ran 1:46.48 at 19.
2. It is VERY unlikely that you realize your potential if you only run one 800m every second or third year.
Even the 800m specialists normally needs time to run their season best:
Van Diepen´s season starter was a 1:47.10. (In California).
Bryce Hoppel´s 1:47.27. I took 3 runs before Hoppel broke 1:46.
I will let yourself judge Brazier´s season opener!
Frenchman Bosse ran 1:44.54 in DL Paris braking 1:47 for the first time this year in his 4th try.
Don´t you think Jakob would improve equally if he ran some more competitions?
3. And especially if he did some specific training for the 800m.
4. All my old heroes Snell, Coe, Owett and Cram were typically 800m/ 1500m runners so they probably trained specifically for the 800m and therefore realized more of their potential.
5. The shoes: Jakob ran 1:49.40 in 2017 at 16 with the "old" shoes so you can´t use the shoes as a way do further downgrade his performances.
6. In your answer to THOUGHTSLEADER´S statement that Jakob could have run at least 1:45 mid last summer you state that Jakob can´t improve with "a couple of seconds". That is misleading as he only has to improve his 2020 time 1:46.48 with ONE second to hit mid 1:45.
You can offer examples of what other runners have done but they aren't Jakob. We can only see what he is achieving. We see no indications that he will or could substantially improve over the 800.
The question at the core of this discussion is whether he has the basic speed of similar or previous top 1500 runners. The measure for "basic speed" (top-end sustained sprint) that Lydiard used was an athlete's time over 200. Snell was 22-low and Ryun was comparable if not even quicker. Coe and Ovett were 21-high. I haven't read what Jakob can do but I would be certain it would be nothing like that. I read that at 16 he could run 51 for the 400 - an averagely good schoolboy time over that distance. I am sure he would be faster now but I would guess he is in the region of 49-low or mid. That would fit with his 1.46-mid over the 800.
I doubt he could run 1.45-flat without being a 48s runner over the one lap. Has he ever shown that?
A reason also for his running very few races over the shorter distance is that he isn't competitive over that distance. Runners rarely put effort into what they aren't good at.
BTW, the shoes I was referring to were not the "old" shoes of 2017 but those of the early 1960's.
Perhaps you could answer the question, if Jakob is clearly a lot slower in terms of basic speed than the best middle distance men of the '60's, who included athletes like Elliott and Snell who were endurance trained, what enables him to be so much faster than them over the mile, their distance?
I have been writing about this subject in another thread and will try to elaborate here:
1. You aren´t running fast when the weather conditions are bad!.
Van Diepen who won in Bergen in 1:46.56 has both before and after run low 1:44; most lately new PB in Paris in 1:44.14.
Australian Deng who ran 1:46.77 in Bergen has afterwards run mid 1:44 in France.
Don´t you think Jakob could have run 1.5 seconds faster under better weather conditions? Especially considering he already 2 years ago ran 1:46.48 at 19.
2. It is VERY unlikely that you realize your potential if you only run one 800m every second or third year.
Even the 800m specialists normally needs time to run their season best:
Van Diepen´s season starter was a 1:47.10. (In California).
Bryce Hoppel´s 1:47.27. I took 3 runs before Hoppel broke 1:46.
I will let yourself judge Brazier´s season opener!
Frenchman Bosse ran 1:44.54 in DL Paris braking 1:47 for the first time this year in his 4th try.
Don´t you think Jakob would improve equally if he ran some more competitions?
3. And especially if he did some specific training for the 800m.
4. All my old heroes Snell, Coe, Owett and Cram were typically 800m/ 1500m runners so they probably trained specifically for the 800m and therefore realized more of their potential.
5. The shoes: Jakob ran 1:49.40 in 2017 at 16 with the "old" shoes so you can´t use the shoes as a way do further downgrade his performances.
6. In your answer to THOUGHTSLEADER´S statement that Jakob could have run at least 1:45 mid last summer you state that Jakob can´t improve with "a couple of seconds". That is misleading as he only has to improve his 2020 time 1:46.48 with ONE second to hit mid 1:45.
Love how you completely ignore Objectobservers post. Two of the runners in the same meet has run 2 seconds faster after the meet. This was just a random meet for Jakob and nothing that he peaked for. If you don’t understand this you need to permanently stop watching T&F and rather take up knitting.
I have just responded to his post. Jakob isn't other runners. You say he didn't peak for this "random event" but a week later he did, over the mile. Oh, right - it was all the conditions. I guess the conditions are never very good when he runs the 800.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.