Three more Kenyan runners busted

Can you please name a single female runner from lower saxony from the Cold War?

Alright - Saxony. Excuse my geography.

If a very fit and well trained athlete who lives at 8,000 got cancer, had chemotherapy, lowered his red blood count significantly, enough to be weak and exhausted, and took EPO would it work for him as it does for anyone else? I imagine so but don't know. It should because in this case you've got a lowered RBC. Is there a point in a healthy person where the RBC can't get any higher? It seems logical but there seems to be nothing definitive about when that happens. Maybe if you're fit enough to run 2:03 or better for the marathon you've reached that point.

This doesn't mean that super fit athletes aren't taking it. You may take it anyway believing it will make you faster. Even if it does nothing physically placebo effect may kick in and speed you up. And there is still the business of two guys running that 2:03, one because he's so fit that EPO does nothing for him and the other who would be a minute or two slower if he was clean but gets EPO to get him a better performance.

None of this is conclusive and my suspicions have little to do with physiology and a lot to do with human nature. If there's big money to be made by cheating and a reasonable chance of getting away with doing it some people will though surely not all. I can't believe that there's anything more or less noble in the character of Kenyans that some, even 2:07 farmers, won't cheat if the reward is enough.

Encouraging. I hope it gets out of the pipeline. It looks like maybe even micro dosing could be detected.

Thoughtsleader,

You weren't reading. As a self professed leader of thoughts, think about it. Re-read everything that I wrote. I have not said that Kenya has a systematic doping problem. I have repeatedly said, ad nauseum here and elsewhere, they have the most suspensions in athletics next to Russia and Russia has a complete ban related to systematic doping. I have often said, "they dope on their own/on their own free will."

Apology accepted.

Now, let's look at the case of Rita Jeptoo. Nearly runs world record, wins Marathon Majors, has sudden and clear jump in performance. Tests positive for EPO. She was also cited for, "deceptive and obstructive conduct throughout the proceedings."

She ran Boston in 2:18:57 before super shoes. She ran Chicago in 2:19-something. She cheated, she tested positive, she got banned, she is Kenyan, she grew up at altitude.

There is the case of David Rudisha, 800m world record holder. Cheated, banned, Kenyan, high altitude. The best.

Tegla Laroupe has blamed foreign coaches for doping. She said last year that Kenya has a doping problem. Which foreign coaches? Any from Italy?

Now, I have said that there are approximately 80-ish athletes that are banned, coming out of bans from the past couple of years....estimation.

2013-2015 there was 30 Kenyan athletes who failed tests.

https://www.evolutionary.org/former-marathon-star-blames-foreign-coaches-for-doping-cases-in-kenya/

Care to check the Wikipedia list of doping cases in athletics? EPO users who are East African and add to that other PEDs related like CERA....go ahead Google-search....

As I maintain, I like Kenya people and AK seems to want to eradicate doping earnestly, but Kenya appears to have a severe doping problem.

What are you talking about with Rudisha? That’s honestly a disgraceful smear that I hope you mistyped thinking of washed Kiprop maybe. You also didn’t read my post because I agreed that Kenya has a doping problem. I clarified that I think anti-doping efforts nationally in Kenyan and internationally with the AIU are currently doing as good a job as could be done for the top-tier athletes.

So, I take issue when retired/no-name athletes get popped for whereabouts and that turns into every elite athlete from Kenya is doping. Not saying you do it, but many do. Ultimately you believe the system or you don’t. I do and I don’t believe AIU/AK have a conspiracy protecting top Kenyans. So what are we left with? People projecting a narrative onto the best Kenyan athletes based on things out of their control like C-level/retired athletes skipping tests.

Yes. That was meant to be Asbel Kiprop. I wish I could go in and edit. Total fail there. In no way am I insinuating Rudisha and def., meant Kiprop.

Athletics Kenya, to their credit, spends a large amount of their resources in educating young Kenyan athletes as to the evils of doping, and the importance of adhering strictly to WADA anti-doping rules, in the hope that the never ending doping scandals that have sullied the reputation of Kenya (outside of this forum) will end.

But according to Thoughtsleader, Canova, Rekrunner, and the rest of the crew here, most of these 'busts' are just down to a complete (and unique) lack of education (and no concept of time) on the part of Kenyan athletes.

Downvote away.

standardmedia.co.ke

Doping: Tuwei warns athletes as Kenya still on AIU watch list

@StandardKenya

Athletics Kenya president Jackson Tuwei has warned athletes that they have nowhere to hide in the war against doping

Open link

I think a big problem with talking about "EPO works" is how the meaning of "works" morphs because no one defines it and then sticks to that definition. If "works" means increasing RBC, then clearly it "works" for everyone. But RBC is not running performance. I don't know the best marathon times post chemotherapy before and after EPO, but it hardly seems representative.

With respect to "nothing definitive about when that happens", we have a lot of trial and error experience about what altitude is the "sweet spot", not by measuring RBC or HCT, but the good old fashioned way, with a stopwatch.

You give the hypothetical example of the 2:03 runners, one who hypothetically would be a minute or two slower if he was clean. With a different hyptothetical we can also make the opposite argument. What if Rita Jeptoo could really run 2:15 clean, with a different coach and better training? If you think that is ridiculous, and there is no basis for such thinking, how is your two hypothetical 2:03 runners scenario any different?

The other problem with "EPO works" discussions is that often the conversation reduces to a separate discussion "fit runners take EPO".

I don't argue against human nature leading some runners of all levels to look for external support. But there are all these hypotheticals like yours that pre-suppose the 2:05 runner could gain 1 or 2 minutes and become a 2:03 runner, or worse, that a 2:03 runner doesn't exist, without EPO. The factual basis for this is non-existant.

It is not a large leap of thought to conclude that which you assumed in the first place.

Rekrunner's15 year long daily sermons on the absurdity of believing that EPO works, is akin to a Flat Earther ranting constantly on an astronomy forum that there is no evidence that the world is round, and smugly believing that he is the smartest and most scientific person in the room.

You said earlier you were well informed, and posts like this cause me to doubt just how well.

Rita Jeptoo nearly ran a world record?

David Rudisha, 800m world record holder? Oh you meant Kiprop. 1500m world record holder? No. Kenyan record holder? No. Did Asbel Kiprop have a sudden improvement? No. He had a massive decline in the last two years, before testing positive for EPO.

You choose the right verb: "believing". Many people believe "EPO works". What exactly do you mean by "EPO works"? Can you pick one definition that everyone can stick to?

We can, and have, measured the globeness of the earth, and have come up with reasonably consistent estimates for 2000 years with a variety of methods.

Please point me to the reasonably consistent measurements of how much "EPO works" for these top distance running athletes in question.

I don't believe I'm the smartest, most scientific, one in this forum, but I do consider comparing me to a flat-earther, when you have no substantive response, neither smart nor scientific.

Not sure what you mean by "scandal".

Educating athletes is one of the explicitly stated anti-doping goals of the AIU, and a mandatory requirement of Category A countries, to be considered and assessed, by the AIU, before losing Category A status.

But not just according to me, and the "crew" here -- my ideas about Kenyan busts come from places like the AIU's website, and WADA's website, including a WADA funded study, and also according to posters like you, who just posted (see your post from yesterday, page 8) a "real world" link describing the challenge of negligence and lack of awareness among Kenyan athletes.

He was past it and didn't bribe enough

So the mods in their wisdom decree that rekrunner can lecture other posters about the use of terms here - and wrongly - but his posts cannot be responded to, in all their disinformation. Censorship has become "rife" - one might even say "rampant". This site has only a pretence to free speech. Vladimir would approve.

Sometimes you have clear factual bases and sometimes you don't. Do vitamins work? If you got sick a lot then stopped doing so after you started taking vitamins did the vitamins cause that or was it something else? Maybe all the illnesses you survived finally strengthened your immune system enough to fight off the diseases.

When you talk about any PED working you cannot measure "working" in the way you can measure whether your room air conditioner or your car's transmission is working. What we know about EPO is how it functions and we suspect that its function seems like it could enhance an endurance athlete's performance. Evidently many endurance athletes accept this idea or they wouldn't use it. The stuff isn't free and why would you risk suspension for taking something ineffective?

But you know what? Even if illegal PEDs do squat to improve performances they're still illegal and I'm glad to see that Kenya seems to have expanded out of competition testing and suspending people failing tests.