I WOULD agree with you but it's soooo far off his PR. over 3 minutes. For him to qualify he needs to have the race of his life... and to be in the shape of his life.. and he didn't show that today.
First off (As someone who has run within 1-min of Seth at Pikes Peak Marathon...he actually has run 1-min faster than I've ever run) I will say that he is a very, very good high altitude climber. His Ascent split at Pikes during the marathon (on a fairly warm day) is very, very good and would win the Ascent flat out most years (anything sub 2:12 at Pikes is very good climbing and puts you in contention for the win).
I'd imagine being a "high altitude guy" (I think he spent a lot of time in Buena Vista when he was growing up at 7k-8k and often loves training in Leadville) certainly helps with Pikes and any Colorado 14er FKTs etc. He may have a pretty high Vo2max (he's quite light as well...maybe 5'6", 115lb?...I'm just guessing there?) and obviously some natural talent and the time/resources to basically train full time it appears.
I also think he has the potential to run an OTQ (sub 2:17)...especially with the carbon fiber shoes and super foams these days.
As someone who has failed to get my 3rd OTQ in '16 and '20 (although I've run sub 2:20 five times in my career as well as bests of 1:04/2:16 in non-carbon shoes), I can also speak to how difficult it can be to try "Any Surface Any Distance" and jump back and forth from mountain running to flat road marathons.
Now the thing Seth has going for him is that he actually doesn't appear to really do any ultramarathons. I've jumped around with 100-milers (disasters) and A LOT of 100km and 50-mile races while mixing in road marathons. That is certainly a recipe for some of my slower marathons (including a 2:23 at Rotterdam), but also when I got 16th at Boston (2:19:12) on a windy day and a couple 2:19-2:20 efforts at Houston more recently.
I've raced Seth head to head at the Speedgoat 50km once and he started off strong, but faded hard in the final 12 miles or so. I think his "sweet spot" might actually be 1-3 hour high altitude mountain races. That actually goes more in line with a road marathon effort/time duration (2 hours etc) the physiological demands. Obviously he is better at climbing and uphills compared to downhills (from what we've seen so far), but his talent level and (probably high Vo2max) make him able to run at least a 1:05 half on the flats...which almost lines up with a sub 2:18:00.
It appears he has a treadmill now so no excuse for not being able to do any "heat training" here in the winter in Colorado. I was actually surprised to see that affiliate link with NordicTrack because I tried to get them to sponsor me and I only got crickets..but maybe I don't have the contacts that he has.... Anyway Treadmills can be great for simulating hot and humid conditions and it only takes a few weeks to get some good adaptations. Coming from high altitude down to sea level also makes handling humid and hot temps easier I think (especially as a lighter/shorter guy with less surface area).
That being said I agree with most posters on here that he probably needs to work on his speed and relative Running Economy just faster than goal Marathon Race pace more. Things like 8 x 1km at 10km pace or faster as well as 1-mile, 2-mile Tempo Repeats at half marathon pace or faster. Slogging around in Leadville at ultramarathon trail running paces is a horrible idea right now (when you're already really good at high altitude) if one's goal is an OTQ marathon. It's something I'd do training for 50-mile to 100km ultramarathon trail races though!
I don't follow his training though, (and I've often failed at the mountain to roads transition), but I do know what it takes to run under 2:18:00. At our age (I believe he is a year older than me or so?), speed is certainly not working in our favor.
Finally, I think we probably have a lot of overlap in YouTube followers, and I'd say the vast majority of people will not respond well to training like Seth (or me for that matter) does. So we can be horrible examples for the masses. People try to find things that are "relatable" or get general training advice that will take them from a 4 hour to a low 3 hour marathon (for example). One has to be very careful with realizing that difference and providing relevant advice as a "coach/influencer." IMO there is a responsibility with the training content that you preach in this space. With a larger subscriber count comes a larger responsibility IMO. I realize (as someone with no kids and no "full time job") that most people don't have the luxury of time, gear, and resources to train that people like Seth and I have. Recognizing that difference in lifestyle (and balance) shapes training plans and philosophy when you're giving advice and talking about distance running training theory as a coach online.
Anyway, just my 2 cents as someone who has been in the YouTube/running game for over 14 years, the MUT Running game for 10 years, and qualified for 2 OTQs.
I sincerely appreciate your commentary here. Nice to see you back on the boards again.
That being said I agree with most posters on here that he probably needs to work on his speed and relative Running Economy just faster than goal Marathon Race pace more. Things like 8 x 1km at 10km pace or faster as well as 1-mile, 2-mile Tempo Repeats at half marathon pace or faster. Slogging around in Leadville at ultramarathon trail running paces is a horrible idea right now (when you're already really good at high altitude) if one's goal is an OTQ marathon. It's something I'd do training for 50-mile to 100km ultramarathon trail races though!
Seth, pay this man to coach you! Dozens of people have told you this, yet for whatever reason you keep ignoring speedwork.
1:08/1:09 today is not an awful time - maybe could've pulled out a 1:07 in better weather but I just don't how he does sub 2:20 in Rotterdam especially if he keeps up his usual training. He did an all-out 13.1 miles@5:13/mile today and needs to pull off 26.2 miles@5:20/mile in 4-5 weeks. I just don't see it happening but I hope I'm wrong.
I don't see how it's trolling to point out that Seth's training isn't conducive to optimal performance in the road marathon. He's really talented, and maybe he could OTQ, but his training holds him back. I'm not hating on the guy's abilities; I'm acknowledging that he's capable of going faster. (I will hate on his content though, his vlogs are basically commercials with the amount of product placement and advertisements he jams down your throat, and I will hate on his cult members for being a bunch of mindless drones who can't think for themselves.)
But the dude is a good runner. I just wish he would suck it up for one training cycle and run a program that's purely dedicated to the road marathon. I get it, I love the mountains too, I genuinely enjoy going for long runs and much prefer them over the strain of workout days, but if he's serious about that OTQ, he can make the sacrifice. The window is going to slam shut on him (if it didn't already last time around). He can run up Pike's Peak and still be competitive for years to come. He's got the rest of his life to be a good MUT runner. He's going to look back in a few years and wonder why he didn't just do one marathon cycle without any distractions.
The half marathon race is normally a part of the PRRO racing series and offered hotels, airfare, and prize money for elites in past years. 2019 was the last year for that. 2020 they didn't offer PRRO money because it was a week before the OT Marathon and nobody was coming. 2021 virtual only race and no prize money. 2022 I guess PRRO still isn't back.
I don't see how it's trolling to point out that Seth's training isn't conducive to optimal performance in the road marathon. He's really talented, and maybe he could OTQ, but his training holds him back. I'm not hating on the guy's abilities; I'm acknowledging that he's capable of going faster. (I will hate on his content though, his vlogs are basically commercials with the amount of product placement and advertisements he jams down your throat, and I will hate on his cult members for being a bunch of mindless drones who can't think for themselves.)
But the dude is a good runner. I just wish he would suck it up for one training cycle and run a program that's purely dedicated to the road marathon. I get it, I love the mountains too, I genuinely enjoy going for long runs and much prefer them over the strain of workout days, but if he's serious about that OTQ, he can make the sacrifice. The window is going to slam shut on him (if it didn't already last time around). He can run up Pike's Peak and still be competitive for years to come. He's got the rest of his life to be a good MUT runner. He's going to look back in a few years and wonder why he didn't just do one marathon cycle without any distractions.
Admittedly I'm not an expert at this stuff, but last summer/fall when I was training for my marathon I was watching a lot of Sweat Elite videos. There's such a huge difference in what the Pros do vs. what Seth does. I know you have to take a step back when looking at Sweat Elite since they feature a mix of workouts from different teams/coaches and cut out all the boring stuff, but I can still flip back and forth between Seth's Strava and maybe one of the McKirdy dudes and see that there are very little similarities in training philosophy. Seth's training is closer to an average guy like me than it is a professional coach. Granted I don't run the volume he does, but his Strava activities just look like mine when I'm trying to stay in shape, nevermind train for a marathon. Lots of "Honey! I'm going out for a run, be back later!" junk miles and the occasional tempo session when I'm feeling spicy vs. a purpose-built program where every activity has its place and looks like it was put there for a reason.
his Strava activities just look like mine when I'm trying to stay in shape, nevermind train for a marathon.
This is why Seth is so annoying. He IS training for a marathon and specifically OTQ marathon result. That requires more than the "stay in shape" activities. So pick your lane, Seth. Are you actually serious about hitting the goals or not? Do you want to just show running things, or show an actual progression of training to a specific goal? Presenting the goals but not doing the things to reach the goals is stupid.
I sub both Seth and Spencer (Athlete Special). One keeps falling short of his goals (although props to his niche Pikes Peak win)and the other did too...until he got a coach. Seth seems uncoachable, though. Too much Dunning-Kruger. I only watch part of Seth's overlong videos Mayne once a week, v. every Spencer.
I don't see how it's trolling to point out that Seth's training isn't conducive to optimal performance in the road marathon. He's really talented, and maybe he could OTQ, but his training holds him back. I'm not hating on the guy's abilities; I'm acknowledging that he's capable of going faster. (I will hate on his content though, his vlogs are basically commercials with the amount of product placement and advertisements he jams down your throat, and I will hate on his cult members for being a bunch of mindless drones who can't think for themselves.)
But the dude is a good runner. I just wish he would suck it up for one training cycle and run a program that's purely dedicated to the road marathon. I get it, I love the mountains too, I genuinely enjoy going for long runs and much prefer them over the strain of workout days, but if he's serious about that OTQ, he can make the sacrifice. The window is going to slam shut on him (if it didn't already last time around). He can run up Pike's Peak and still be competitive for years to come. He's got the rest of his life to be a good MUT runner. He's going to look back in a few years and wonder why he didn't just do one marathon cycle without any distractions.
Admittedly I'm not an expert at this stuff, but last summer/fall when I was training for my marathon I was watching a lot of Sweat Elite videos. There's such a huge difference in what the Pros do vs. what Seth does. I know you have to take a step back when looking at Sweat Elite since they feature a mix of workouts from different teams/coaches and cut out all the boring stuff, but I can still flip back and forth between Seth's Strava and maybe one of the McKirdy dudes and see that there are very little similarities in training philosophy. Seth's training is closer to an average guy like me than it is a professional coach. Granted I don't run the volume he does, but his Strava activities just look like mine when I'm trying to stay in shape, nevermind train for a marathon. Lots of "Honey! I'm going out for a run, be back later!" junk miles and the occasional tempo session when I'm feeling spicy vs. a purpose-built program where every activity has its place and looks like it was put there for a reason.
This is all true. and this is how he's going to coach his suckers, and they won't know the difference. They'll never realize they could have been 3:00 faster in a 5k, or 30:00 faster in a marathon, because they're gonig to be runinng on catchphrases instead of actual training principles.
I watch sdj and just enjoy the ride, who cares if he wins, pr's etc.. It is actually more relatable to most hobby joggers. There are not enough serious runners to support his channel so going to get ice cream with his kids is actually decent content for the masses, and the drone shots are nice as well. I did like it better when he was struggling but why hate on someone for having some success?
As a hobbyjogger, what is most relatable to me is someone working in a disciplined methodical way to achieve their goals. If Seth was actually able to train in a smart disciplined way to achieve his goals I would find that way more inspirational than the 3 angles of coffee cup he insists on shooting.
This is all true. and this is how he's going to coach his suckers, and they won't know the difference. They'll never realize they could have been 3:00 faster in a 5k, or 30:00 faster in a marathon, because they're gonig to be runinng on catchphrases instead of actual training principles.
Do this experiment. Go to the comments section of any one of Seth's videos, find one of the people saying something along the lines of "you are amazing, easy days easy", go to that person's strava profile, and find me a PR at any distance faster than 7 minutes per mile.
This is all true. and this is how he's going to coach his suckers, and they won't know the difference. They'll never realize they could have been 3:00 faster in a 5k, or 30:00 faster in a marathon, because they're gonig to be runinng on catchphrases instead of actual training principles.
Do this experiment. Go to the comments section of any one of Seth's videos, find one of the people saying something along the lines of "you are amazing, easy days easy", go to that person's strava profile, and find me a PR at any distance faster than 7 minutes per mile.
Meant to say "go to the comments section of any one of Seth's strava runs"
Seth has multiple goals (marathon, mountain running, etc) and says as much so I don't understand why people think he should "train like a pro".
I don't think wondering why a guy won't do some very basic threshold and VO2 max work that you can find in any generic marathon training plan is necessarily expecting him to "train like pro."
Seth has multiple goals (marathon, mountain running, etc) and says as much so I don't understand why people think he should "train like a pro".
I imagine when he fails to meet his time goal in rotterdam it will be due to his "outside the box" training block, and when he fails to make the mountain running team it will be due to his road marathon emphasis.
Seth has multiple goals (marathon, mountain running, etc) and says as much so I don't understand why people think he should "train like a pro".
I imagine when he fails to meet his time goal in rotterdam it will be due to his "outside the box" training block, and when he fails to make the mountain running team it will be due to his road marathon emphasis.
win-win
Exactly. And the kids go home without Andy's so lose-lose for them.
Seth has multiple goals (marathon, mountain running, etc) and says as much so I don't understand why people think he should "train like a pro".
He's trying to compete with pros. He pretends he's a pro. His believers think he's a pro. He trains like an ADD-addled toddler who doesn't like hard work.
Do this experiment. Go to the comments section of any one of Seth's videos, find one of the people saying something along the lines of "you are amazing, easy days easy", go to that person's strava profile, and find me a PR at any distance faster than 7 minutes per mile.
Meant to say "go to the comments section of any one of Seth's strava runs"
Are you kidding me? You want people to research posters on SJD comment section and cross reference their Strava to prove that they are not fast? Or that running slow miles is wrong marathon training?
Do you have a life?
Hey kiddos... This post right here proves that the losers are not SJD posters but the LRC wannabes that would actually recommend or do this.
Meant to say "go to the comments section of any one of Seth's strava runs"
Are you kidding me? You want people to research posters on SJD comment section and cross reference their Strava to prove that they are not fast?
I'm sorry it is so intimidating to open a comment section and click on a random username. I didn't mean to scare you with difficult computer operations.
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