slide 24. This is 2012-2015 schedules, so probably mostly for Henrik. Im sure the schedule changes slightly for JI when he's doing 3k/5k, but it's probably pretty close.
Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:
sans-culottes wrote:
Gotcha, I misread and I thought he was writing about rest intervals. General rule of thumb for rest seems to be 1/3ish? Any ideas on passive v/ active recovery, and is that something dictated by lactate readings?
Marius said in an interview that the length of rest was not important. He also writes that for short reps it needs to be shorter so he referred to longer reps for the rest not being important. I find that it is harder to pace evenly with too long a rest. I use 30s max and 20s is really enough to be ready for anothre long rep at threshold pace. It is a sustainable pace and the rest is in theory not needed. Still splitting up continuous does something and for ex 3min reps can be run faster than 1h race pace (probably down to 30min race pace). For short reps it does not make sense to have long rest, one only move out of a beneficiary VO2 consumption state by having too long rest. Marius used (as far as I understand) 1min for 3min and longer. I would think 15s is fine for 30-45s reps and 30s for 1-2min reps. Marius used 1min since he did a lactate measurement and needed the time...
For shorter reps, such as Ks and 400s, they should be done at around 10km pace? Wouldn't this produce higher levels of lactate than what is desired? If I am understanding correctly, the PM session is still done below threshold, usually 0.5 or so below. Wouldn't 10k pace produce levels of lactate higher than threshold?
You could do 1:00 @ 10k pace w/:30 rest and stay under LT. 10k is certainly much faster than the traditional "LT" pace, but 2 to 1 is also a lot of rest for "LT" pace. Also, in 1:00, your HR is going to be likely still climbing and may not even get to your LT HR on any reps excepts the very end of the workout.
Let's say your LTHR is 170. If you are consistently only getting to about 165-167 on each interval, you are likely going to be in the clear from a lactate standpoint.
shirtboy2021 wrote:
You could do 1:00 @ 10k pace w/:30 rest and stay under LT. 10k is certainly much faster than the traditional "LT" pace, but 2 to 1 is also a lot of rest for "LT" pace. Also, in 1:00, your HR is going to be likely still climbing and may not even get to your LT HR on any reps excepts the very end of the workout.
Let's say your LTHR is 170. If you are consistently only getting to about 165-167 on each interval, you are likely going to be in the clear from a lactate standpoint.
For 400's, definitely. A large volume of 400's at 10k pace is great because you can run faster than for longer intervals but still get a threshold stimulus.
The K's are the bigger question for me. I think K's at 10k pace with 60s recovery would push you over threshold.
dfbfgh wrote:
For shorter reps, such as Ks and 400s, they should be done at around 10km pace? Wouldn't this produce higher levels of lactate than what is desired? If I am understanding correctly, the PM session is still done below threshold, usually 0.5 or so below. Wouldn't 10k pace produce levels of lactate higher than threshold?
In the original link from OP there is stated:
We see the same successful structure of 3:33 1500 meter Swedish runner Kalle Berglund, a runner mentioned to have copied the Ingebrigtsen training a couple of years ago, modelled the same way in a talk by Janne Bengtsson :
Tuesday
AM Threshold 2.5mmol 5x6min /1min Rest
PM Threshold 3.5mmol 10x1000m/1min Rest
end of quote
I guess the 2.5 and 3.5mmol pace means a longer stable steady state pace and not the mmol after each rep.
1000s probably 15k-HM pace
That could be adjusted to K Berglund actual threshold.
He may have a 3.0mmol threshold. He is more of a 1500 guy that JI who has much more range and i would guess his threshold is a little lower maybe 2.7.
So i would guess if you got tested, you could say:
AM: reps at .5 mmol under threshold as a cap
PM: reps at .5 mmol over threshold as a cap
shirtboy2021 wrote:
LP+ uses control solutions to calibrate. Tested those control solutions on a LP2 strip, always higher than the range, which is not that large. On avg from what ive tested about .4-.5mmol higher.
Also, anecdotally, the Norwegian Triathletes use the LP+ and show their values in training. They state their lab tested threshold values in many interviews and test in their youtube videos and show the results. Pretty much 1:1. Of anybody, i would assume with the amount they are testing and how freakishly they measure every variable in training, they would probably be using the meter closest to the lab.
I think many like the LP2 because to me its certainly better to have the strips individually wrapped, especially for transporting them. Also, LP2 probably more available than LP+ in EU than in the US.
Got it.
Thank you for the details.
shirtboy2021 wrote:
That could be adjusted to K Berglund actual threshold.
He may have a 3.0mmol threshold. He is more of a 1500 guy that JI who has much more range and i would guess his threshold is a little lower maybe 2.7.
So i would guess if you got tested, you could say:
AM: reps at .5 mmol under threshold as a cap
PM: reps at .5 mmol over threshold as a cap
Don't think he has 3.0mmol Lactate threshold, because he is 1500m runner and he needs also to have a good anaerobic capacity.
Therefore his LT is definitely higher as 3.0mmol. I would say between 4-5mmol.
Not sure that would work out numbers wise the way many measure their Lactate Threshold, which is 1.5 mmol above baseline lactate values in their ramp test, but maybe.
shirtboy2021 wrote:
Not sure what the cause is but they are. LP2 is always higher than Lactate +.
Maybe the reagent or whatever the two are using?
I've never seen the LP+ be higher than the LP2 on a properly taken sample, and i have and use both frequently.
If you mind me asking, where did you purchase them from? I see them on lots of commercial medical supply company websites with no pricing listed, or just on ebay (which could be fine or sketch?).
LP2 Ebay, LP+ from Lactate.com
HABDirect is another good place that ships internationally
Just ordered LP2 as I live in Europe. For long time I am curious what my lactate levels are in real world compared to lab test.
I am 400/800/1500 guy and my thresold is at 2.6.
Probably I need to run intervals over LT, but not by much.
For those working off heart rate zones, what %MHR OR %HRR is applicable to the longer and then shorter intervals? 2.5 mmol equivalent to 75-80% MHR or 70-80%HRR and 3.5 mmol 85-90%MHR 80-85%HRR?
Hard to say exactly, because its non linear the lactate number will move quickly within just a few HR points.
If i had to guess, without knowing what your LTHR is here, id say:
2.5 mmol 80 to 85% MHR
3.5 mmol 85 to 90%MHR
Even within HR ranges though, you could be 2.0-2.5 or 3.0-4.0 on a given day, it's hard to know precisely without the meter of course.
If you know your LTHR either by the Garmin via workouts and HR strap, which i think is more accurate than you'd guess or the Joe Friel 30 minute test, if you stay about 4-5 beats under that as your MaxHR cap for the workout, you are pretty safely in the right spot. Hard to do though, since you keep drifting in the workout many times.
And there will be variations, especially depending on time of day, hydration and fueling as well. I'd suggest you get some carbs in you right before a threshold workout.
COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:
Canefis wrote:
For this reason JS made a lot of mistake, trained me way too fast....
No I didn`t. You followed easy the paces I gave you at the treadmill, but when it came to running outside you didn`t know how to control the paces I gave you and to hold your horses of your new higher level. When the coaching started you didn`t tell me that you had an old foot injury and it eventually flared up but after some rest and stabilizing shoe inserts/ support you were ready to go again the DANCAN way but became entagled in the belief that you knew best how to move forward. But I don`t regret the coaching of you and I found it very interesting and amazing to one more time see how fast the DANCAN system improves a runners running ability.
magic@coachjs.se
Yes you did. When Canefis was running too fast you said look everyone, my system is working.
When Canefis was tired, you said nothing.
Now you want to blame him for your false promises.
You have no shame or humility. You're self absorbed. Narcissistic. Delusional and Dishonest. A bad coach.
tempus fugit wrote:
COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:
No I didn`t. You followed easy the paces I gave you at the treadmill, but when it came to running outside you didn`t know how to control the paces I gave you and to hold your horses of your new higher level. When the coaching started you didn`t tell me that you had an old foot injury and it eventually flared up but after some rest and stabilizing shoe inserts/ support you were ready to go again the DANCAN way but became entagled in the belief that you knew best how to move forward. But I don`t regret the coaching of you and I found it very interesting and amazing to one more time see how fast the DANCAN system improves a runners running ability.
magic@coachjs.seYes you did. When Canefis was running too fast you said look everyone, my system is working.
When Canefis was tired, you said nothing.
Now you want to blame him for your false promises.
You have no shame or humility. You're self absorbed. Narcissistic. Delusional and Dishonest. A bad coach.
+1
shirtboy2021 wrote:
Thank you Sir! this is the same thread i was remembering!
particularly this:
"This year I did the LT (I-AT) at much more precision than ever - more of it and at a higher frequency throughout the week.
I was challenged a year ago to change some of my training to a more intensity based model ("normal distance model"), but luckily I decided to go with what I believe in and to do that even better instead.
Problem is with LT training -when you want it to be really, really potent ; it takes precision ALL THE TIME, it makes the winter training much more boring than with the faster stuff and you got to be very, very patient. The major lift comes when you manage to develop the AT base from the winter into running aerobic at a lactate level where most people run on their anaerobic system (metabolism) in the summer (keeping the triggered fat metabolism, higher concentration of enzymes 5-HAD, Citrate Synthase from the winter etc) This in a real key ; the AT training is only a component needed to develope the high end "aerobic" system. If you do not know how to make this transition when the summer comes you will burn yourself into the anaerobic modus quite fast and not get the results you could have. In that case you might as well have trained normal distance training during the winter. Therefore precision in the summer is equally important. Racing alot will for example help the anaerobic system-guys but not a whole lot those (few) with a real high end aerobic system in the bottom.
Marius
"
Assuming he started to change his thinking because he was doing 4-5 LT2 workouts a week in his prime. Might be why the Ingebristen's system has the AM Threshold's as 'slower' which i think Marius mentions as an aside in the OP "In terms of lactate say if your individual threshold value is 3.0, a range of 1.8-1.9 and 3.2 can be beneficial – at different types of sessions at different times, as mentioned above."
1.8-1.9 on a Lactate Pro 2 is probably about a 1.5-1.6 on a Lactate +, same with 3.2 probably being about 2.5-2.6 on a Lactate +, right in line with what he's recommended before and certainly in line with what the Norwegian triathletes are doing.
Arnaud Dely has an IG where he shows his aerobic work and lactate values and he's almost always under 2.0 mmol on a Lactate +, which has to be in his Aerobic Threshold range. People comment about the low value for his xK intervals and he just says '2.5 mmol would be too fast'
I read an interview with Swedish 2,10 marathoner David Nilsson. He said that he would never be able to do Kalle Berglunds training. It´s too boring.
interesting from slide 24
Monday : am 10 km + pm 10 km
Tuesday : 5x6min + 20x400m
Wednesday : 10km + 10 km
Thursday : 5x6 min + 8x1000m
Friday : 10km + 10 km
Saturday : 10x300 m + 6km
Sunday : 12 km + 4km+styrkeX2
Monday : 10km + 4SL+motor ikk m.m.
Tuesday : 5x6 min + 20x400m
Wednesday : 10 km + 10km+4SL+motorikk m.m.
Thursday : 4x6 min + 20min jogg+2x2min terskel+3x300m+ 5x200m. 43,08- 28,01
Friday : 8 km + 30min+2sl+motori kk/bevege
Saturday : 8 km + 20min jogg+2x2min terskel+5x300m +5x200m. 42/26,5
Sunday : 8km+4x80m bakke
Monday : 6x300 på 41.5 p=90 + 8km
Tuesday : 8km+4x100mK L+motorikk/styrke
Wednesday : 8 km + 20min jogg+2x2min terskel+3x300 m+5x200m. 42/26,5
Thursday : 30min + 30 min
Friday : 30 min + Fri
Saturday : DL Paris 1500m 3.32,85