Katir confirms what Ramzi already told us - full throttle EPO improves 1500m times by 8 - 10 seconds

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

It amuses me that you seem to speak from experience - either as a doper, or having known dopers. Yet you have no such experience. None of your claims about the effects of EPO are based on personal knowledge or, alternatively, on data derived from comprehensive analysis of athletes who dope, since none subject themselves to scientific studies. So your claims about "optimization" and "maximization" are mere speculation on your part. You can be no more definitive in your views than anyone else here.

One could say child-like amusement from someone who thinks you need to experience anemia or polycythemia to speak about well documented detrimental effects.

I do have extensive experience with the necessity of controlled measurements to support claims such as 9 second improvements are entirely due to EPO.

One of my claims is that such controlled measurements simply do not exist.

This can easily be disproved by producing examples of such controlled measurements to demonstrate their existence.

Bilbo Baggins the Fourth wrote:

dopergang wrote:

Katir is clearly rocket fueled but you can’t say EPO is worth 8 seconds in the 1500 and a minute in the 5k based on his improvement alone. It’s reasonable to assume he would’ve run faster than 3:36 this year if he was still clean. Also, he cut a minute from his 5k time in three years, not one.

Not sure why you think this says anything about El G considering the top athletes are still doping today and no one is really threatening his marks yet. To suggest he was actually just a 3:34 guy is ridiculous unless you think the clean world record is well over 3:30.

He improved by less than a second from 2019 - 2020 (22-23 yo). Yes, he didn't have many races in 2020, but if you look at his 3:36 he was completely all out and likely was close to his max in 2020. He may have ran 3:35 in 2021 without EPO, but that still means a 7 second improvement in under 12 months. How much more if he had been full throttle doping since he was 16 as El Gl likely was?

El G was a science experiment whose career almost exactly matched the introduction of EPO and the eventual introduction of testing for it. No other elite 1500m runner in history had the opportunity to dop full throttle with EPO from mid-teens to mid-twenties as El G did other than the runners who did get near his times, Ngeny and Lagat. Whether or not all the top guys today are doping, it has to be relatively miniscule compared to El G with the ABP and much more effective tests for EPO and other stuff.

Ramzi was probably capable of sub 3:28 and he was clearly a 3:35 guy or worse without his EPO. Again, it appears his full throttle doping was rather brief to make that improvement, just like Katir's.

No athlete today can dope anywhere near like El G did. Yes he was a 3:34 guy or worse. Not sure on what basis you're making the claim that the clean world record would have to be over 3:30 for that to be the case, unless it's some kind of stupid Casual Observski logic.

Renato Canova wrote:

Please, show to have some brain, and stop to continue to look at THE MOST STUPID RESEARCH EVER, that can't demonstate anything.

1) I never said EPO doesn't work with Kenyan. A not trained Kenyan is a not trained athlete, and a weak Kenyan is a weak athlete. I wrote this many many times, you know but continue to use everything lieing about what I said.

I SAID EPO DOESN'T WORK WITH KENYANS AND ETHIOPIANS BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN HIGH ALTITUDE, of course if their training is the best possible as volume and intensity (something nor you, and nor the researchers, know, also by far). After what Sondre Moen and Julien Wanders were able to do, I changed my assertion, explaining that EPO DOESN'T WORK WITH ATHLETES WITH BIG TALENT LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE WITH CONTINUITY, no matter if are Kenyans, Ugandans, Ethiopians, Norwegians or from Switzerland. This means that I'm not a supporter of "superior talent" of African, in general, but of "the level of aerobic talent of the athletes", that can bring the athlete himself to reach top results in clean way if decides to live and train in altitude in proper way.

2) Going back to the research, the athletes involved WERE NOT ATHLETES. How in the article is written, the athletes are very much weaker than the athletes I coach (and than thousands of Kenyan running with continuity).

It's true that "The runners in this study weren't as fast as those Canova coaches, but there's no published research showing that world-class Kenyans don't improve after doping; this study showed a significant improvement in Kenyans with hemoglobin and hematocrit levels similar to those of world-class Kenyans.

There is, also, no published research showing that world-class Kenyans IMPROVE after doping.

And, about levels of Hb and Hct of top Kenyans, among my athletes I have a wide range : my first Kenyan World Champion, Christopher Koskei in 1999, had Hct of 39.7 one week before winning WCh in Seville, while Ronald Kwemoi had normally 52, both when ran 3'28"81, when ran in Nairobi the WR in altitude (3'30"89) and when didn't run for almost one year because of the stress fracture he had during the meeting of Monaco 2017.

briguy wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Please, show to have some brain, and stop to continue to look at THE MOST STUPID RESEARCH EVER, that can't demonstate anything.

1) I never said EPO doesn't work with Kenyan. A not trained Kenyan is a not trained athlete, and a weak Kenyan is a weak athlete. I wrote this many many times, you know but continue to use everything lieing about what I said.

I SAID EPO DOESN'T WORK WITH KENYANS AND ETHIOPIANS BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN HIGH ALTITUDE, of course if their training is the best possible as volume and intensity (something nor you, and nor the researchers, know, also by far). After what Sondre Moen and Julien Wanders were able to do, I changed my assertion, explaining that EPO DOESN'T WORK WITH ATHLETES WITH BIG TALENT LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE WITH CONTINUITY, no matter if are Kenyans, Ugandans, Ethiopians, Norwegians or from Switzerland. This means that I'm not a supporter of "superior talent" of African, in general, but of "the level of aerobic talent of the athletes", that can bring the athlete himself to reach top results in clean way if decides to live and train in altitude in proper way.

2) Going back to the research, the athletes involved WERE NOT ATHLETES. How in the article is written, the athletes are very much weaker than the athletes I coach (and than thousands of Kenyan running with continuity).

It's true that "The runners in this study weren't as fast as those Canova coaches, but there's no published research showing that world-class Kenyans don't improve after doping; this study showed a significant improvement in Kenyans with hemoglobin and hematocrit levels similar to those of world-class Kenyans.

There is, also, no published research showing that world-class Kenyans IMPROVE after doping.

And, about levels of Hb and Hct of top Kenyans, among my athletes I have a wide range : my first Kenyan World Champion, Christopher Koskei in 1999, had Hct of 39.7 one week before winning WCh in Seville, while Ronald Kwemoi had normally 52, both when ran 3'28"81, when ran in Nairobi the WR in altitude (3'30"89) and when didn't run for almost one year because of the stress fracture he had during the meeting of Monaco 2017.

This is hilarious and one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read. Being a good coach clearly doesn’t prevent you from being delusional