Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and Drew Hunter/Tinman Elite have parted ways

Han Solo wrote:

DoNotAssumeAnything wrote:

I am coached by Coach Schwartz

I do largely the same training as them

This is a problem.

/thread

The full-time pro coaches like AlSal would also hold that initial meeting for the athlete and coach to agree on the training terms, as in, if you agree to be coached by me, I call all the shots from a-z. My job is to make you the best runner you are capable of becoming. Your job is to commit 100% to the training and do what I say.

Any athlete should want that coaching relationship, because it puts the burden of performance and results on the coach as long as the athlete is doing everything as directed. The athlete provides feedback on how they feel etc, but that’s it.

Plus motivation cannot be ignored: the athlete has to want to be his/her best, and trusts the coach to get them there. There’s no way someone like Rupp could still be so good for so long without being supremely motivated to win.

There are 2 problems here that I see:

1. Tom should have negotiated and secured a big boy, real professional coach, contract. You don't work for a "professional" team for side gig money.

2. Tom should have had a lawyer involved to ensure that his name/brand was his property at least at some ownership level, with the proper buy-out clauses in place in the event of separation.

Because he did not do these things he is out on his butt (maybe for good reason, idk) and the youtube crew can continue to profit off the brand they built that includes his name. Seems he really got the short end of the stick perhaps by his own lack of initiative to get organized years ago.

Form matters, but your ability to see form is poor (look into this- even trained coaches aren't very good at picking out efficient form). And as someone else mentioned, a lot of the time form "issues" have mechanical roots that can't be fixed.

Lots of Kenyans with supposedly poor form can absolutely crush it.

All the trademarks are in Hunter's name.

Yumpin' Yiminy! Give the boys time to change the name. This split just happened relatively recently, and it will take them a little bit of time to reinvent themselves, especially in an Olympic year. And there are legalities to be dealt with, regarding names. Change will happen. It has to happen, and everybody knows it. In retrospect, I bet everyone responsible wishes they'd not chosen "Tinman Elite" as the name, as what has happened or another split where Tom quit the team was always a possibility.

We'll eventually learn that there was a LOT more to the story. Like having a coach who was spread way too thin because he focused on getting a PhD and he coached far too many teenagers (Rhinehardt Harrison) and non-elites (like Joan Hunter a few years back) who wanted to improve, and consequently he was not accessible (enough) to the professionals who ran using his name. Just because he'd moved to Colorado didn't mean he was accessible (enough). Just because you're a coach who has had some feathers in your cap doesn't mean negatives won't eventually bite you in the proverbial a**. Who knew AlSal's full bag of tricks until much later, despite "success" being a huge part of his legacy?

And there's no freakin' way Tinman didn't get paid for his efforts!

To all those users of the word "should" regarding Tinman and Drew -- you "should" all be honest with yourselves and realize that, on MOST things pertaining to TME you don't know squat. None of us do. Even when talking about Drew's form. AlSal...Jim Ryun and his bobbing head...Emil Zatopek...and a boatload other champions were form-challenged, yet they were all-time greats. The posted speculation about this team is RIDICULOUS at times in this thread. We can glean a few things about TME from videos, but videos are made to project a point of view, which means they're biased.

Meanwhile, a few of TME's competitors are going to get a boost from the recent news.

yup, it's all a matter of public record.

Tinman trademarks are registered by Tinman LLC which is in Drew's name

He also bought his house for $985000 :)

rojo wrote:

Quick article here:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2021/04/tom-tinman-schwartz-is-no-longer-coaching-drew-hunter-and-the-tinman-elite/

probably a disagreement about money caused the breakup.

l33t_sl3uth wrote:

yup, it's all a matter of public record.

Tinman trademarks are registered by Tinman LLC which is in Drew's name

He also bought his house for $985000 :)

You are right about the LLC! (& likely the house).

Not a lawyer or into business at all, but if Drew Hunter named and filed the company name, then it's his. Maybe Tom can buy the rights back and Drew can get a second house in C. Springs or Flagstaff.

I am the tinman

we are the tinman koo koo ka choo

cringeman elitist

I’m sorry, but Drew Hunter is the most overrated athlete that I’ve seen in American distance running in recent history. I’d give him about a 1% chance of making the Olympic 5k team and 0% at 1500 meters.

The tinman elite trademark was filed in Dec 2020 (pretty recently) but hasn't been approved by the US trademark office. So the tinman name may still be up in the air....

kipudgy wrote:

This is correct. LOL that mummy thinks she’s a better coach than Tom. They f***ed him over real good.

No, Tinman f***ed over the athletes. They've been hurt constantly and they've run like sh*t. He got fired for poor performance. The athletes didn't owe him a damn thing.

Tinman's entire career is built on the back of Drew Hunter's success and nothing else. Tinman should forever be thankful for Drew Hunter.

any truth here wrote:

kipudgy wrote:

This is correct. LOL that mummy thinks she’s a better coach than Tom. They f***ed him over real good.

No, Tinman f***ed over the athletes. They've been hurt constantly and they've run like sh*t. He got fired for poor performance. The athletes didn't owe him a damn thing.

Tinman's entire career is built on the back of Drew Hunter's success and nothing else. Tinman should forever be thankful for Drew Hunter.

this will be a good repost when drew hacker runs like sh*t under mommy and is a has been.

al sal groomed ruppy poop since what 8th grade? i bet tinman still gets people to run for him and has success. you guys are all acting like tinman is the same as ryan deaks dad...no that guy was a hack.

Thanks for the great response Rojo; you have insight into Tom that others might not.

I am considering Tinman-style training at some point.

Is Tinman the kind of coach that can upskill developing talent to good but not great? Exceptional ones like Drew are the exception, for instance.

In NFL terms, is he Marty Schottenheimer? I mean that with no sarcasm--Marty took teams with little talent and made them competitive, and teams with good talent, and got them in the playoffs (1980s Browns).

I would kill to run 18-minute 5ks right now lol!

https://www.runningfastr.com/5k-training-plan/18-minute-5k-training-plan/

Yes I agree we don’t know squat about what actually happened to TME at this point. I’m trying not to be too critical. Hopefully these will be lessons learned for all parties and hopefully good things will result from the forthcoming changes.

Right now the future of US distance running is looking pretty good with the young talent developing with males like Hocker and Nico. Would love for US to have another male marathoner compete at the elite level, but Rupp is really all we have right now. Yes 2:09 is an excellent marathon, but it’s a long way from 2:04.

Wow, there are a lot of folks on here speculating this or that about this entire situation with Coach Tinman, Tinman Elite and Drew. Here are the facts because I feel this needs to be shared to stop all the BS comments on this thread. Time to rock-n-roll!

Fact: Coach Tinman did not leave Tinman Elite. He was told over the phone that his services were no longer needed. The team voted by the raise of a hand "yes" or "no". He was told that the team voted unanimously "no we don't want his coaching services". Not every athlete on the team really agreed to this, but they had no choice because it was not an anonymous voting system. The guys that wanted to stay with Coach Tinman had no choice, but to agree, because they would not have the financial backing to continue their running career. Ya, what a shame! Here is the dinger, they never gave Coach Tinman a reason for letting him go. Even Drew never told his Coach. How unprofessional on their part...pretty sad.

Fact: I have a hunch that the Tinman guys didn't like their Head Coach giving them friendly reminders in their team meetings to quit the F- bombing posts and inappropriate gestures on their social media. Any Head Coach for any team wants their team to display a good image to the public...especially a semi-pro team that is popular with today's youth. You certainly don't see other professional running teams doing this. But no Tinman Elite runners think its cool, hip, to flip the bird and use profanity on your social medial posts. As a parent I wouldn't want my kid to follow Tinman Elite just for that one reason.

Fact: Coach Tinman never had a contract with Adidas!

Fact: Coach Tinman has nothing to do with the Hammer & Axe training plans or $$ gained from them. They are cookie cutter plans derived from what they have learned from Tinman. Do you really think these guys have the credentials to Coach your middle school kids or high school kids. Heck no! Tinman has credentials and proven experience with results. PhD in Health & Human Performance/Exercise Science, USATF Level 3 in: Youth Specialization and Endurance Coaching, plus Level 5 IAAF Elite Endurance Certification and former collegiate coaching. None of the Tinman Elite runners have any experience coaching, nor credentials. They are using a dummied down version of Coach Tinman's training just to make $. They were told to not use Coach Tinman's training methods for their personal gains financially.

Fact: Coach Tinman coached most of the Tinman guys for free for one year before being asked to relocate to Colorado and be the Head Coach for Tinman Elite. He was paid a small monthly salary of a couple thousand (LRC note, in another post Tammie clarified this figure and said it was $2,000 exactly), compared to what other Head Coaches make, which is $75k to $300K or more. Yes, I agree he should of had a formal contract before making the move from Idaho to Colorado.

Fact: Drew paid his Coach for a very small salary (a beginners teacher salary) and they did have a good relationship, until a certain individual got involved. Jealousy might be the evil doer behind all this.

Fact: Drew has a big heart and helped finance several of the Tinman Elite guys to help this club get started. Coach Tinman gave up a lot financially to help in the cause too. Unselfish acts by both.

Fact: Coach Tinman has not received one penny for all the Tinman merchandise sold. He encouraged the guys to start selling merchandise to help support their needs such as: strength coach fees, massage therapy, nutritionist, chiro fees, traveling, entry, the list is endless. They needed something to help them pay for all the little things that make a difference to get to the next level like the big dawgs in the running world Nike, New Balance, Brooks Beast etc.

Fact: Coach Tinman did not control the Tinman Elite. They controlled him. He had no say in what meets to attend, where to stay, when to arrive , training places, etc. So if Coach Tinman advised them to run in this meet or go here to train...it was planned then oops all of sudden the boys didn't want to attend at the last minute. Coach Tinman would make arrangements to travel for training camps, show up, and then some of the guys would change their plans at a moments notice....not show up.

Fact: Coach Tinman has helped Joan for many years with her training plans. He gave her endless free advise on a moments notice either via email or a phone call to adjust training for her team and individual runners on her high school team. His help aided in her team success when she needed it. Yes there is nothing wrong from learning from others. It helps you become a better coach. Coach Tinman NEVER charged Joan any money for his help.

Fact: Coach Tinman's Elite runners don't always get injured. Have you ever thought that other contributing factors outside of training methods, play into how runners may get injured? Not following coaches training plan, sleep, running in meets not advised, running hard on easy days, not following through with physical therapy or massage therapy, doing other sporting activities that could cause you to get injured, or most importantly lack of proper nutrition. This team paved their own destiny, by doing what they wanted and when they wanted to do this or that.

Fact: Coach Tinman does not go behind High School Coaches to coach athletes on their teams. He asks the athletes parents to talk to the Head Coach first to make sure there will be no conflicts. If there are conflicts he does not Coach the athlete. Many times he ends up talking and working with the Head Coach for the benefit of the entire team. He charges a fair amount just like any other coaching service. He has to pay his bills just like you and support his family!

Fact: A few of you call Coach Tinman a dick based on you listening to his podcasts or watching his video's. The man has a PhD, he is full of knowledge and when he gets on a roll, yes he likes to share and educate just like Vigil. How on earth can you judge a person without even meeting them? Coach Tinman gets endless emails and telephone calls from coaches, parents, and runners from all over the world and responds to them. I would not exactly call him a dick for doing this. Don't judge anyone until you have met them in person or talked to them.

I'm furious and completely disappointed in the Tinman Elite team and what you have done not only to Coach "Tinman" Schwartz, but to my entire family. You took advantage of him, you used him and abused him. You took his name "Tinman" which was well known before you even existed and profit $$$. Heck, you didn't even give our family a small % of what you profit off his name, which is unethical. I myself wanted to share this information because the truth needs to be told. I'm tired of people bashing and speculating this and that. I guess we as a family learned a valuable lesson, that is to never trust a bunch of 20 year old's and relocate without a solid contract backed by a lawyer. We will move on with our lives, as you will too. I just ask that you NEVER do this to another Coach...the way you did this to my husband and my family. It was wrong, unprofessional, immature and completely petty. You still have not given my husband ONE reason as to why you let him go. It certainly has nothing to do with your performances. The majority of you guys have run PR's under my husbands guidance.

Lastly, Drew I sure wished you would of stuck to your promise of continuing to work with Coach Tinman. My husband believed in you and we moved to Colorado to support you! You distanced yourself from him, blamed him for your performance when you did not do the little things needed to take care of yourself, you certainly didn't listen to his advise, and trained differently then what he prescribed for you. You were also influenced by your buddy, the media and your Mom. My advise: Have a growth mindset, make your own decisions, act like a professional runner, and focus on YOUR FUTURE, not the Tinman Elite Team. Control your own destiny or someone else will!

Best,

Tammy Schwartz