Masters star Kevin Castille - whom many LRCers thought was on drugs - is banned for testing positive for a steroid

you used "begs the question " wrong

Seriously mate? wrote:

LetsRun message board right again!

A broken watch is right twice a day.

The dude raced prolifically and was never "off." He cherry picked small races for a paycheck and he dominated against his peers in national competitions. Why so many of his fellow masters competitors refused to call him out, "wanted to believe" in something too good to be true, now express disappointment, etc. is astounding and reflects a real softness in modern society, particularly among Boomers in this case.

I mostly stay away from the old men training threads, so I don't come across this guy Smoove very often. But wow is he obnoxious. How did he manage to make this thread all about himself???

"I have achieved masters greatness beyond what anyone else on this board has done"

SERIOUSLY??? No one cares about masters. The proof is right here - one dude was cleaning up for years and no one batted an eye because in the grand scheme of things his times weren't good enough to demand testing. Obvious doper but no one could muster up the energy to even test him. So carry on with your age grades blah blah blah

Meh.... wrote:

What times did Castille run “in his prime” in college?

Anyone????

Needles McDoperface wrote:

The dude raced prolifically and was never "off." He cherry picked small races for a paycheck and he dominated against his peers in national competitions. Why so many of his fellow masters competitors refused to call him out, "wanted to believe" in something too good to be true, now express disappointment, etc. is astounding and reflects a real softness in modern society, particularly among Boomers in this case.

Calling out other athletes is never a really good look. . Unless you have solid evidence (i.e. I stayed at his house and here is a picture of the 3 vials of EPO in his fridge and his tube of TRT creme), there isn't much you can say that doesn't make you look like a sore loser...

To drug taker, things seem to never change.

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

Needles McDoperface wrote:

The dude raced prolifically and was never "off." He cherry picked small races for a paycheck and he dominated against his peers in national competitions. Why so many of his fellow masters competitors refused to call him out, "wanted to believe" in something too good to be true, now express disappointment, etc. is astounding and reflects a real softness in modern society, particularly among Boomers in this case.

Calling out other athletes is never a really good look. . Unless you have solid evidence (i.e. I stayed at his house and here is a picture of the 3 vials of EPO in his fridge and his tube of TRT creme), there isn't much you can say that doesn't make you look like a sore loser...

Exactly. There are other athletes out there who are suspicious - I do not name them on social media, just as I never named KC. If you have suspicions - tell them to USADA. If you have a picture of 3 vials of EPO in a fridge - send to USADA. And cross your fingers that USADA can catch the person, just like they caught KC.

Calling someone out by name on social media does NOTHING to prevent the cheating or improve the sport. And if you are wrong, you've just started a horrible rumor against that person.

Far better to just commit to supporting USADA any way you can, including keeping your eyes open and submitting tips when appropriate.

I really do hope (perhaps naively) that the fact that KC was caught is resulting in other runners reflecting on their own choices.

Yeah, don’t speak your mind and start a rational discussion, even if there is ample evidence and you are articulate.

/sarc

Like dark wave, I think different standards apply in different situations.

Have I openly said to my close running friends that I suspected Castille of doping? Definitely. That’s a small circle of people whom I know and whom I trust enough to disclose certain information (such as the conversation that I had with one of his athletes in which the athlete strongly implied the Castille was doping).

Would I have laid out the same take on a message board for broader consumption? Nope. Wo th put something more than speculation and a common sense notion that someone is cheating, assailing them in front of a broad audience just isn’t fair. I mean, we all pretty much knew he was doping, but we didn’t definitely know. So I decided, like darkwave, that sullying his reputation under those circumstances just wasn’t something I was comfortable with.

And, finally, if you think that it is fair game to assail them in front of a broader audience, don’t do so anonymously. Put your name behind your assertions (at least by way of a registered name that can be eventually tracked back to you) so that if you cross a line and make false accusations, you can be held accountable for your actions, whether than be in the court of public opinion here, or in a court of law in connection with a slander action.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Yeah, don’t speak your mind and start a rational discussion, even if there is ample evidence and you are articulate.

/sarc

the problem is, "ample evidence" means something different to different people. until dudes like castille are caught, i don't think there was ample evidence, just suspicions and speculation. i have no problem with the castille defenders of the past--it was entirely possible (though unlikely) that he was a dude who never realized his potential back in the day and through good coaching, good health, and a little luck, he may have run his best post-40. i'm sure it's possible somewhere out there there's a collegiate 14:15 5k dude who really was capable of 13:30 had he had the right lifestyle, coaching, support system to run post-collegiately, etc. imagine that dude turns 40, turns his life around, and runs 14:00. certainly it would look suspicious, but not if really was a 13:30 dude "in disguise."

and for people blaming usada: whatever problems that agency has, and there probably are many, they can't simply act because they get called by some butt-hurt masters dudes who can't believe they got beat by 33 seconds in a 5k. it doesn't work that way, nor should it. should there be more testing at national championship races? yes. but all in all, there are reasons why these guys don't get caught (both pros and old men), and, it's worth pointing out, there are reasons they do get caught, but this ain't pokemon--you'll never catch 'em all...

This thread does lay clear why prize money for masters athletes is probably not a great idea. All I can picture is a buncha wiry, intense grandpas rehashing what they really should have "earned" if not for cheaters. Way worse than boring stories of glory days from people like the JoBros. Instead, give it all to those who are the future of the sport and who stand a reasonable chance of being regularly tested.

Gentleman Savage wrote:

This thread does lay clear why prize money for masters athletes is probably not a great idea. All I can picture is a buncha wiry, intense grandpas rehashing what they really should have "earned" if not for cheaters. Way worse than boring stories of glory days from people like the JoBros. Instead, give it all to those who are the future of the sport and who stand a reasonable chance of being regularly tested.

That's assuming that prize money is the primary incentive for masters doping.

It may be in some cases, but likely not in most.

My suspicion is that the majority of masters runners who are not playing by the rules are not doing it for money, or even for the winning. As you get older, those anti-aging clinics get more tempting - pay some money and get some pills and you'll feel and recover like you were in your twenties again. You'll be able to do 3 hard workouts a week and run faster than is ideal on your easy days and get away with it. You'll be able to go out on Friday night AND do the Saturday long run AND go out Saturday night.

The promise of returning to how you felt and what you could get away with in your 20s and even 30s is the motivation. The winning and the prize money are nice too (and not unimportant) but secondary.

And that makes it even easier to rationalize - because you're not taking that stuff with the goal of winning (because that's what cheaters do), but because a doctor prescribed it and it makes you feel better (and you just happen to win because you feel better). Sure, it's banned, but you're over 40 and a doctor told you to take it, so it must be OK. (or alternately, you choose to be ignorant of the USADA rules and assume they don't apply to you, because you're not a cheater).

That's how I believe the mindset works, extrapolating from my experience investigating misconduct in other areas. The number of people in this world who make bad choices and do bad things vastly outnumbers the number of people who think they are doing bad things or making bad choices. And I'm sure that the number of masters runners who are violating the USADA rules vastly outnumbers the number of masters runners who believe they are doing something wrong.

I would disagree with you slightly on the incentive for masters runners who are doping. It has been my observation that most of the men and women who have been caught, and most of those we suspect, are runners who are mainly doing it for attention and status. They want to be recognized as top runners and be able to tell others that they are one of the top runners in their age group. Typically, they are the ones who will be wearing their medals around post-race and posting lots of pictures of themselves with their medal/trophy. They are not concerned with the process of training and racing, but only about the recognition they get from their result. While all of us who are competitive like to win our age groups, most of us mainly care about the process of training and racing well, and whether we can perform at the level that we believe we should be capable of wherever that puts us in the race standings.

I tend to agree, but it also really looks like both Kevin and Eddy H, and definitely some foreign (*cough* Russian*cough*) runners on the road circuit in years past were after the cash as well. I never won any $ as a master ( a few medals and prizes) but I would be i favor of ending prize money.

I agree with the logic of your post - perhaps you are right, perhaps I am.

I do think that it might also be that the ones who are so focused on attention and status are more likely to draw the attention of USADA? Either directly or because they annoy others, who then tip off USADA?

YMMV wrote:

I tend to agree, but it also really looks like both Kevin and Eddy H, and definitely some foreign (*cough* Russian*cough*) runners on the road circuit in years past were after the cash as well. I never won any $ as a master ( a few medals and prizes) but I would be i favor of ending prize money.[/quote]

Sorry about the glitch above. too bad this place doesn't have an edit function.

Elite masters in the 40-45 age group, sometimes a few years past that, can make some okay money on the road circuit, enough to make a living if they race and win a lot. Get older than 45-50 and only USATF offers some money at championships, on a good day it's enough to pay for your trip, or maybe part of it. So it's not a lot of money.

If some old roid raging geezer comes flying by ya just turn is arse in:

https://ufc.usada.org/resources/playclean/

2019 stats for play clean:

533 calls produced 70 targeted tests resulting in 4 violations and 3 sanctions

lets see there budget is 23 million bucks of course they did other testing but it takes a lot of dough to catch someone Dollars needed to catch astronomical. Doping Easy. Good movie on this is Catch Me If You Can.

Asking Ed Whitlock to piss in a bottle is a sad thought kinda like calling snow white a whore where did I put my meds hot chocolate I want my hot chocolate