Here is something (if you are not familiar) that may give some backbone to your planning. The Furman University FIRST program. “Run Less, Run Faster.” Here is a PDF outline, and I will follow with a couple other links.
https://t3triteam.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/furman-1st-5k-program.pdf
Brittle Master 1958 wrote:
Just thinking out loud here, as I think ahead. Apologies if this is not what the forum is for. Probably getting way ahead of myself anyway.
This is exactly what I believe this forum is for. There are masters runners here of a wide variety of abilities and most are very supportive of all. Please keep thinking out loud.
Brittle,
On cross training, my experience is non-weight bearing works best. Spin bike and swimming with fins. I have gravitated away from spin bike since the activity limits blood flow to areas that were affected by my cancer treatment. Swimming is more aerobically challenging, and more of a totally body workout. The action of the fin acts like a plyometric on the foot and ankle.
As you are experiencing, so much of this has to be fine tuned with individual aging. It seems a general approach becomes forced focused as one ages. If one is fortunate enough to be able to handle a more traditional approach, so much the better. I suppose this is less the norm much past 60.
Igy
Van Aaken the forgotten genius way ahead of his time.
I was thinking the same:
an Aaken’s key rules for running:
(As found on page 56 of The Van Aaken Method)
• “Run daily, run slowly, with creative walking breaks”
• “Run many miles, many times your racing distance if you are a track runner; up to and often beyond if you are a long distance runner. Do tempo running only at fractions of your racing distance.”
• “Run no faster during tempo runs than you would in a race.”
• “Bring your weight down 10-20% under the so-called norm and live athletically- i.e., don’t smoke, drink little or no alcohol, and eat moderately.”
• “Consider that breathing is more important than eating, and that continuous breathlessness in training exhausts you and destroys your reserves.”
Dr. Van Auken’s star pupil Harald Norpoth, a skinny fellow 3:36ish and 13:15ish in early 70s:
Brittle Master 1958 wrote:
Outstanding training by a lot of people this week. This is one reason I come here: to be inspired. The people who are struggling inspire me, too, because I am struggling myself.
Today I finally hit 160 pounds, which was my goal. I started at 184 pounds on Jan. 1. Unfortunately there is still a sizable roll of fat around my waist and covering my belly. I guess all the muscle I used to have really did turn to fat as I aged. Now I am thinking of going to 156, which would be BMI 18.5, but we’ll see.
How thin is too thin? I imagine the answer differs for different people. I happen to be small-boned. Lasse Viren, Finland, used to race at 5’11”, 130-134 pounds (BMI 18.1-18.7). He won four Olympic gold medals: 5000 and 10,000 in 1972, 5000 and 10,000 in 1976. Just 18 hours after he won his second gold medal of the Games in the 1976 5000 final, Viren competed in the Olympic marathon and finished 5th in 2:13. He’s an example of someone who flourished on the low end of the BMI scale.
Well...for a competitive middle-aged runner being light and with low body fat as possible would be the best bet. But body type is a big genetic component of distance running. I'm 5-7 and right now about 170 (up from my usual 165) - that's a BMI of 26.1, which is consider overweight. When I played college football in the late 70s/early 80s, I was 195 (fullback in the old slot-I formation), a BMI of 30, which is considered obese. Lol. The Kansas City Chiefs drafted a RB in the 1st round (Clyde Edwards-Helaire) who is listed at 5-7, 210! The BMI for that is 33, again listed as obese. Lol. He's a chiseled muscular specimen with 4.6 speed and unbelievable quickness. The point is BMI is stupid when used to measure athletes.
My best racing days in my 30s & 40s, I never could go below 165 without starving myself & giving up weight training. I could muster 35-40 mpw and race year round without many injuries. I had very a low body fat % at that weight and still weight trained 3-4 times per week. But carrying that weight & bulk into my 50s while trying to run that kind of mileage has resulted in a lot of injuries, including a major tendon rupture & some post-traumatic osteoarthritis. But I don't want to give up weight training and lose upper body mass, and besides I don't race anymore going from competitive runner to fitness runner (12 mpw & a weekly 1 mile TT).
Hi BM1958,
Why not three time your 2 day scheme followed by a rewarding day e.g. on Sunday? Rewarding in the sense that the weekly work is done and do today what you feel for. No plan, no performance. I prefer slow walks in the forest watching the trees, birds etc.
So, on rewarding day I am starting a run and stop when I feel for it. Enjoy nature and hike back. Day dream and make new doable plans. Have a recovered day with the family.
BR
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
Dr. Van Auken’s star pupil Harald Norpoth, a skinny fellow 3:36ish and 13:15ish in early 70s:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.olympicgamesstats.com%2FOlympic-Games-Results-of-%2FHarald-Norpoth-(FRG)%2F17120&psig=AOvVaw1EWTuoUhQZSgSBv04U0W2c&ust=1594086071189000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCIiSqsi_t-oCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD
His nickname was "The Running Skeleton"
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/harald-norpoth?family=editorial&phrase=harald%20norpoth&sort=mostpopular
Great to see those. A festival of my teenage Brit heros: Brendan Foster, who still comments the Great North Run (or maybe he just retired). Ian Stewart, Lachie Stewart and David Bedford all fighting it out with Steve Pre and Norpoth. I wonder what race that was.
I remember watching on television Brendan Foster run 27:30 for 10,000, solo, in the rain at Crystal Palace (London). I saw live Ian Stewart (13:22) and Ian McAfferty (13:23) outsprinting Kip Keino and Ron Clarke at the Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh in 1970. It was the same day that Ron Hill ran 2:09:30 in the marathon, a few months after smashing the Boston record. Sweet memories.
Oops. Should have been Ian McAfferty, not Lachie Stewart in my first paragraph.
Allen1959 wrote:
Because of knee issues, I took many months off.
Welcome back! Glad to see you back at it!
Newbi wrote:
Why not three time your 2 day scheme followed by a rewarding day e.g. on Sunday? Rewarding in the sense that the weekly work is done and do today what you feel for. No plan, no performance. I prefer slow walks in the forest watching the trees, birds etc.
Newbi, I've been trying to do that.
But if I try to rest on the seventh day, I go stir-crazy.
Just can't stop
When my spark gets hot
The Trammps, 1976
What kind of foot surgery are you having?
having the navicular and cuneiform fused together...currentltly, they rub abgainst one another...bone on bone...not pretty...surgery requires 12 weeks no weight bearing...no driving even (gulp.)
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
I was thinking the same:
an Aaken’s key rules for running:
(As found on page 56 of The Van Aaken Method)
• “Run daily, run slowly, with creative walking breaks”
• “Run many miles, many times your racing distance if you are a track runner; up to and often beyond if you are a long distance runner. Do tempo running only at fractions of your racing distance.”
• “Run no faster during tempo runs than you would in a race.”
• “Bring your weight down 10-20% under the so-called norm and live athletically- i.e., don’t smoke, drink little or no alcohol, and eat moderately.”
• “Consider that breathing is more important than eating, and that continuous breathlessness in training exhausts you and destroys your reserves.”
SOLID advice...thanks for the Van Aaken reminders
Newbi wrote:
Hi BM1958,
Why not three time your 2 day scheme followed by a rewarding day e.g. on Sunday? Rewarding in the sense that the weekly work is done and do today what you feel for. No plan, no performance. I prefer slow walks in the forest watching the trees, birds etc.
So, on rewarding day I am starting a run and stop when I feel for it. Enjoy nature and hike back. Day dream and make new doable plans. Have a recovered day with the family.
BR
I don't want to sound like a smart arse wanker but I find all my "training" rewarding. Pretty much all sessions are done with a sense of fun and enjoyment.
A friend mentioned how dedicated I must be the other day. That was after a post work solo kayak session in very cold conditions in a small forestry dam (25 laps) finishing in the dark. She repeated the comment after the next day's solo 7 mountain bike laps of a muddy circuit in a chill wind and constant rain. I said no dedication required as I was having a heap of fun.
I just love doing this stuff!!
Today's kayak session was on a flooded abandoned quarry just south of the middle of nowhere. It was just me and two black swans out there. I rolled through getting quicker each km before kicking in the big ones on the penultimate km to push the pace up 10%. Little mind games and challenges along the way. Beautiful setting what isn't to love about it.
Tomorrow morning I will take the mountain bike out before work (afternoon shift) I have a few ideas as to the course (probably the One Eye Forest) and the mode of workout but will see how things unfold.
I am already playing with some interesting ideas for wenesday's run.
I do work quite hard on a lot of my sessions (check out sunday's running) but it good fun to smash out a hard effort as long as you are up for it.
Stocky Old Runner wrote:
My best racing days in my 30s & 40s, I never could go below 165 without starving myself & giving up weight training. I could muster 35-40 mpw and race year round without many injuries. I had very a low body fat % at that weight and still weight trained 3-4 times per week. But carrying that weight & bulk into my 50s while trying to run that kind of mileage has resulted in a lot of injuries, including a major tendon rupture & some post-traumatic osteoarthritis. But I don't want to give up weight training and lose upper body mass, and besides I don't race anymore going from competitive runner to fitness runner (12 mpw & a weekly 1 mile TT).
Stocky Old Runner,
I am tall and have usually been on the slim side. I can't tell you how often I've been passed in races by shorter, stockier guys who simply had a better aerobic engine. At the local racing level, and even at quite a bit higher levels, I think that matters way more than body type or BMI.
In a way I feel it's "not fair" that my aerobic engine is weak. I am perfectly willing to run a ton of miles to get stronger and faster, but I can't, because my body breaks down if I try to run more than a few miles a week. At a certain point in our lives, I think most of us catch on that there's nothing "fair" about life; it just is what it is, and we all have to do our best to play the hand we're given. Things could be a lot worse! I do get to run a little, and I love doing it.
Mopac wrote:
I find all my "training" rewarding. Pretty much all sessions are done with a sense of fun and enjoyment.
Mopac, you have the right idea.
Igy, thanks for the FIRST links. I will read them. Probably my crosstraining would be the elliptical if I had access to an elliptical. I am a terrible swimmer and can’t ride a bike because it hurts my knee. My Planet Fitness location reopened today, and of course they have ellipticals, but my wife and I agreed it is too soon for me to go back.
Charlie, thanks for the van Aaken link. I love stuff like that and will take a look.
old guy, thanks for the encouraging words.
Allen1959, good luck with your knee issues! I am right there with you. After every run, I wonder if I will be able to run next time. It’s always a game-time decision: does the knee feel OK today? That's one reason I never like to enter races in advance.
MikeF, the foot surgery sounds scary, but it may be all for the best! Let’s hope for a good outcome that leads to many more years of productive running.