Cecc if your point is that there are many bad people in Eastern Europe, that’s fine and I agree. Nasty place, one of the worst in the world, over the past 100 years. Horrid.
if your point is that imperialist barbarians based in Moscow should dominate Eastern Europe and recreate the evil imperial Soviet Union , then …then…you are just a troll ish fool and siding with evil, living to needle people you think are hypocritical rather than make any genuine valuable analysis.
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agip wrote:
Cecc if your point is that there are many bad people in Eastern Europe, that’s fine and I agree. Nasty place, one of the worst in the world, over the past 100 years. Horrid.
Washington DC? Tel Aviv? Wall Street? Hollywood? Epstein Island
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Newname wrote:
Mick Joggerrr wrote:
It is reported that Russia has kidnapped 17,000 Ukrainian children. Why?
DeNazification? Control NATO expansion?
Because this is Pure Genocide and a desire to exterminate Ukranian people, culture. It has always been that. Just like Stalin's genocide in Ukraine. If Putin could drop a nuke, chemical weapons or bioweapons without any strategic penalties to himself he would do it in a second.
Obvious answer is it's propaganda, a lie.
You are accusing Russia of actions and attitudes Israel has
You have an unhealthy obsession with Israel, the only democracy in a neighborhood full of authoritarian regimes. Seek help.
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Femboi1 wrote:
Newname wrote:
Obvious answer is it's propaganda, a lie.
You are accusing Russia of actions and attitudes Israel has
You have an unhealthy obsession with Israel, the only democracy in a neighborhood full of authoritarian regimes. Seek help.
A democracy? Tell that to the millions of non Jews living in the Occupied Territories.
Washington DC has an unhealthy relationship with Israel. Don't you know that? It's 2023.
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agip wrote:
Cecc if your point is that there are many bad people in Eastern Europe, that’s fine and I agree. Nasty place, one of the worst in the world, over the past 100 years. Horrid.
if your point is that imperialist barbarians based in Moscow should dominate Eastern Europe and recreate the evil imperial Soviet Union , then …then…you are just a troll ish fool and siding with evil, living to needle people you think are hypocritical rather than make any genuine valuable analysis.Yet, nobody can find evidence that Putin himself said he wants to return "Russia to its former glory"
Meanwhile, 1) NATO agreed not to expand and 2) most of Ukraine, especially the west, are Nazi sympathizers.
Putin was correct about both.
If pointing this out makes you uncomfortable, this thread is not for you. You are not ready.
What are your thoughts about a swastika in a Ukraine shopping mall? Do you think this is appropriate for children and families or any society?
This post was edited 54 seconds after it was posted. Reason provided: .04 -
ceccione wrote:
agip wrote:
Cecc if your point is that there are many bad people in Eastern Europe, that’s fine and I agree. Nasty place, one of the worst in the world, over the past 100 years. Horrid.
if your point is that imperialist barbarians based in Moscow should dominate Eastern Europe and recreate the evil imperial Soviet Union , then …then…you are just a troll ish fool and siding with evil, living to needle people you think are hypocritical rather than make any genuine valuable analysis.Yet, nobody can find evidence that Putin himself said he wants to return "Russia to its former glory"
Meanwhile, 1) NATO agreed not to expand and 2) most of Ukraine, especially the west, are Nazi sympathizers.
Putin was correct about both.
If pointing this out makes you uncomfortable, this thread is not for you. You are not ready.
What are your thoughts about a swastika in a Ukraine shopping mall? Do you think this is appropriate for children and families or any society?
Yup, if a Nazi flag shows up in a mall that means its entire nation should be conquered and subjected to brutal fascist rule. You are a perfect logician.
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agip wrote:
ceccione wrote:
Yet, nobody can find evidence that Putin himself said he wants to return "Russia to its former glory"
Meanwhile, 1) NATO agreed not to expand and 2) most of Ukraine, especially the west, are Nazi sympathizers.
Putin was correct about both.
If pointing this out makes you uncomfortable, this thread is not for you. You are not ready.
What are your thoughts about a swastika in a Ukraine shopping mall? Do you think this is appropriate for children and families or any society?
Yup, if a Nazi flag shows up in a mall that means its entire nation should be conquered and subjected to brutal fascist rule. You are a perfect logician.
well I guess that's that. Putin, come take over the US. We won't fight back - there's a Nazi flag flying in Michigan so we don't have the right to stop an invasion anymore. Rats. It was a good run, but man that flag is bad.
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14
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agip wrote:
ceccione wrote:
Yet, nobody can find evidence that Putin himself said he wants to return "Russia to its former glory"
Meanwhile, 1) NATO agreed not to expand and 2) most of Ukraine, especially the west, are Nazi sympathizers.
Putin was correct about both.
If pointing this out makes you uncomfortable, this thread is not for you. You are not ready.
What are your thoughts about a swastika in a Ukraine shopping mall? Do you think this is appropriate for children and families or any society?
Yup, if a Nazi flag shows up in a mall that means its entire nation should be conquered and subjected to brutal fascist rule. You are a perfect logician.
Then don't start wars by using Nazis to ethnic cleanse unarmed civilian minorities. Somebody may try to help them. And they did. That's why the Donbas was liberated. Fug around and find out.
Have a watch....... so you can continue to fail at defending Ukrainian Nazis provoking war
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Newname wrote:
Femboi1 wrote:
You have an unhealthy obsession with Israel, the only democracy in a neighborhood full of authoritarian regimes. Seek help.
A democracy? Tell that to the millions of non Jews living in the Occupied Territories.
Washington DC has an unhealthy relationship with Israel. Don't you know that? It's 2023.
Millions who refuse to recognize and accept Israel? They don't want to participate in Israel's democracy. Those non-Jews who accept Israel, live free and thrive in Israel. For example there are Arab members of the Knesset.
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you'd have a point if israel wasn't an apartheid state breaking international law
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted. Reason provided: .05 -
ceccione wrote:
agip wrote:
Cecc if your point is that there are many bad people in Eastern Europe, that’s fine and I agree. Nasty place, one of the worst in the world, over the past 100 years. Horrid.
if your point is that imperialist barbarians based in Moscow should dominate Eastern Europe and recreate the evil imperial Soviet Union , then …then…you are just a troll ish fool and siding with evil, living to needle people you think are hypocritical rather than make any genuine valuable analysis.Yet, nobody can find evidence that Putin himself said he wants to return "Russia to its former glory"
Meanwhile, 1) NATO agreed not to expand and 2) most of Ukraine, especially the west, are Nazi sympathizers.
Putin was correct about both.
If pointing this out makes you uncomfortable, this thread is not for you. You are not ready.
What are your thoughts about a swastika in a Ukraine shopping mall? Do you think this is appropriate for children and families or any society?
Remember Cecci, more than half of all Nazis in the world live in Russia. Every time you find evidence of a Nazi in Ukraine, there are at least ten Nazis in Russia.
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Cecci The Serial Liar wrote:
ceccione wrote:
Yet, nobody can find evidence that Putin himself said he wants to return "Russia to its former glory"
Meanwhile, 1) NATO agreed not to expand and 2) most of Ukraine, especially the west, are Nazi sympathizers.
Putin was correct about both.
If pointing this out makes you uncomfortable, this thread is not for you. You are not ready.
What are your thoughts about a swastika in a Ukraine shopping mall? Do you think this is appropriate for children and families or any society?
Remember Cecci, more than half of all Nazis in the world live in Russia. Every time you find evidence of a Nazi in Ukraine, there are at least ten Nazis in Russia.
Individuals? I won that point weeks ago, per capita.
On the real problem, Ukraine is an official Nazi state. Russia is not.
No other country has Nazi battalions and orgs officially accepted into their ranks, assimilated into their military and government. In addition to Azov Battalion, there is the Aidar Battalion, C14, and National Front, which are all Nazi military or Nazi political organizations that Zelensky folded into his govt.You lose the bigger point as well.
Nazi collaborator monuments in Ukraine -
Many new streets and monuments have been erected since a new government took over in 2014"In Lviv and two other locales — 1.5 million Jews, a quarter of all Jews murdered in the Holocaust, happened via collaboration with Nazis. In the years since the Maidan uprising brought a new government to Ukraine in 2014, numerous monuments to Nazi collaborators and Holocaust perpetrators have been erected, at times as frequently as a new one each week."
Over the past six years, the country has been institutionalizing worship of the paramilitary Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which collaborated with the Nazis and aided in the slaughter of Jews, and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), which massacred thousands of Jews and 70,000-100,000 Poles.This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted. Reason provided: .03 -
ceccione wrote:
agip wrote:
Cecc if your point is that there are many bad people in Eastern Europe, that’s fine and I agree. Nasty place, one of the worst in the world, over the past 100 years. Horrid.
if your point is that imperialist barbarians based in Moscow should dominate Eastern Europe and recreate the evil imperial Soviet Union , then …then…you are just a troll ish fool and siding with evil, living to needle people you think are hypocritical rather than make any genuine valuable analysis.Yet, nobody can find evidence that Putin himself said he wants to return "Russia to its former glory"
Meanwhile, 1) NATO agreed not to expand and 2) most of Ukraine, especially the west, are Nazi sympathizers.
Putin was correct about both.
If pointing this out makes you uncomfortable, this thread is not for you. You are not ready.
What are your thoughts about a swastika in a Ukraine shopping mall? Do you think this is appropriate for children and families or any society?
The LED display at the shopping center was hacked, probably by Russians who are trying to portray Ukraine as full of Nazis to justify an unprovoked genocidal war against Ukraine.
NATO never agreed not to expand. That is a pure lie. NATO never entered into any sort of formal treaty with Russia in which it agreed to forgo expansion. Any such treaty would have required Russia to substantially de-militarize, akin to WWII peace treaties with Japan and Germany. Russia wanted to keep its massive military in order to beat up on any independence movements within its new republic and did so in brutal fashion in Chechnya--twice. Russians in the 1990s were still very sophisticated diplomatic negotiators and knew full well that any behind the scenes assurances they received regarding NATO expansion were only as good as the paper they were written on. The Russians had no interest in any enforceable treaties with the West over NATO expansion because the Russians wanted to do lots of things that would threaten all the countries that wanted to join NATO.
Russia agreed on paper, in writing, in an actual treaty to respect Ukraine's borders and its right to self determination in exchange for being relieved of having to support Ukraine as a Soviet satellite and, more importantly, in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. If Ukraine still had its nukes, Russia would have never invaded. Of course, these actual agreements are never mentioned by Putinists because as Lavrov said, the war in Ukraine was "launched against" the poor peace loving Russians (and then the laughter broke out).
Ukraine actually has one of the smallest ultra right movements in all of Europe. The ultra right block only got 2% of the vote in the last parliamentary elections. France and Italy have much larger and more powerful ultra right movements. Hungary and Turkey are pretty much run by right wing governments that include ultra right nationalists.
In Ukraine, the relationship with the Nazis past is complicated. Stepan Bandera is basically the George Washington of Ukraine. Most people in Ukraine believe that he was a true hero and all the stories about him working with the Nazis and being a fascist are just propaganda made up by the Soviet Union to discourage Ukrainian nationalism. Further, Ukrainians know that the Russians are triggered by Nazi symbols and see Nazi images, salutes, etc. as a way to flip Russia the bird. Most Ukrainians have relatives who lost immediate family in the Holodomor or were forcibly displaced by the Soviets during the great push for collectivization of farming and manufacturing. Most "ethnic Russians" (there really is no such thing) who live in the eastern part of Ukraine were brought there by the Soviets during collectivization to replace all the Ukrainians who had either been starved to death or sent to the gulags in Siberia for resisting Soviet rule. So, in Ukraine, Nazis are sort of an enemy of my enemy. But it is in no way a mainstream thing in Ukraine. It is more akin to people in the south in the US who have rebel/confederate flags.
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agip wrote:
Interesting thread and idea here: that rU is using battle of bahkmut to severely weaken Wagner. Ru does not need the city…but looking past the war the Kremlin believes it needs a weak Wagner.
interesting idea. Shows some cunning.
Not sure that this is such good news for Ukraine, though.
Why would Putin let the Wagner Group be destroyed if he thought he still needed them? Perhaps he wouldn't. Does he now believe that he no longer needs them?
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Newname wrote:
Mick Joggerrr wrote:
It is reported that Russia has kidnapped 17,000 Ukrainian children. Why?
DeNazification? Control NATO expansion?
Because this is Pure Genocide and a desire to exterminate Ukranian people, culture. It has always been that. Just like Stalin's genocide in Ukraine. If Putin could drop a nuke, chemical weapons or bioweapons without any strategic penalties to himself he would do it in a second.
Obvious answer is it's propaganda, a lie.
You are accusing Russia of actions and attitudes Israel has
Don't look now, but IT's showing again.
You can only keep IT hidden for so long.
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agip wrote:
Interesting thread and idea here: that rU is using battle of bahkmut to severely weaken Wagner. Ru does not need the city…but looking past the war the Kremlin believes it needs a weak Wagner.
interesting idea. Shows some cunning.
ISW has been following the Russian political dynamics as they apply to the eastern front for months now.
Wagner has been pushing hard with Prigozhin selling the idea that Wagner is the only Russian force having significant success. He's doing this to elevate his own stature and doing so with absolute disregard to the lives of his recruits.
Prominent mil-bloggers have played on this so Putin was willing to throw the MOD under the bus for losses in the eastern region and Kherson until recently so as to shift the blame for Russia's lack of success for the last half year.
More recently Putin seems to have decided (rightly) that he needs the MOD and a more regular structure of forces to have any hope of long term success, so he's reinstated significant commanders and tried to consolidate irregular forces (DNR, LNR, and Wagner) under the regular Army. He also seems concerned about Prigozhin (or anyone else) gaining the stature to replace him.
The MOD moved elite regular forces into the Bahkmut region so that Prigozhin can't take sole credit if/when Bahkmut is taken, but the working relationship with Wagner isn't great. It's not that the MOD doesn't want Wagner to be successful, it's that they don't want Wagner to be too successful and diminish their influence in the Kremlin.
Ukraine has been tenaciously defending Bakhmut because the geographic advantages and the Russian tactics have resulted in a very high casualty ratio. The article below says, without attribution, "by some estimates at a ratio of 7:1" which would be enormous for two relatively well matched armies. I think the UK intelligence has estimate 5:1, but I can't find the source.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.10 -
Monkeys Skyping wrote:
agip wrote:
Interesting thread and idea here: that rU is using battle of bahkmut to severely weaken Wagner. Ru does not need the city…but looking past the war the Kremlin believes it needs a weak Wagner.
interesting idea. Shows some cunning.
ISW has been following the Russian political dynamics as they apply to the eastern front for months now.
Wagner has been pushing hard with Prigozhin selling the idea that Wagner is the only Russian force having significant success. He's doing this to elevate his own stature and doing so with absolute disregard to the lives of his recruits.
Prominent mil-bloggers have played on this so Putin was willing to throw the MOD under the bus for losses in the eastern region and Kherson until recently so as to shift the blame for Russia's lack of success for the last half year.
More recently Putin seems to have decided (rightly) that he needs the MOD and a more regular structure of forces to have any hope of long term success, so he's reinstated significant commanders and tried to consolidate irregular forces (DNR, LNR, and Wagner) under the regular Army. He also seems concerned about Prigozhin (or anyone else) gaining the stature to replace him.
The MOD moved elite regular forces into the Bahkmut region so that Prigozhin can't take sole credit if/when Bahkmut is taken, but the working relationship with Wagner isn't great. It's not that the MOD doesn't want Wagner to be successful, it's that they don't want Wagner to be too successful and diminish their influence in the Kremlin.
Ukraine has been tenaciously defending Bakhmut because the geographic advantages and the Russian tactics have resulted in a very high casualty ratio. The article below says, without attribution, "by some estimates at a ratio of 7:1" which would be enormous for two relatively well matched armies. I think the UK intelligence has estimate 5:1, but I can't find the source.
sounds correct that the kremlin wants Wagner to survive...but not come out of this with too much glory and therefore be a threat to putin.
I'd disagree mildly that UKR wants to hold bakhmut for geographical reasons....from what I read it's virtually irrelevant in the big sweep of the war. But it's proving a great way to eliminate thousand of RU and Wagner forces. And keep RU focused there and not elsewhere. Plus the obvious David v Goliath propaganda UKR can use to keep the war in the world's newspapers.
other than an outright military defeat, being forgotten in the world press is UKR's biggest nightmare. Bakhmut is keeping UKR in the news and helping to keep support flowing. This kind of thing happens in most wars.
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agip wrote:
I'd disagree mildly that UKR wants to hold bakhmut for geographical reasons....from what I read it's virtually irrelevant in the big sweep of the war. But it's proving a great way to eliminate thousand of RU and Wagner forces. And keep RU focused there and not elsewhere. Plus the obvious David v Goliath propaganda UKR can use to keep the war in the world's newspapers.
To be clear, Bakhmut isn't strategically important in the sense that large portions of Ukraine will likely fall if Bakhmut falls.
It is a good place to take a stand because of the local geography and the difficulties for Russia playing offense in urban warfare. So when/if Ukraine makes a tactical retreat and reverts to rural trench warfare Ukraine's tactical situation will be less advantageous. Because Russia lacks the combat strength for significant offense on multiple fronts, the battle for Bakhmut has resulted in Russia concentrating forces there and taking pressure off Ukraine to defend in other places.
Also, as you say, as long as Ukraine holds Bakhmut they deny Russia a propaganda win.
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New York Times reporting that "new intelligence" suggests Nord Stream pipeline sabotage was carried out by a pro-Ukrainian group not under the direction of the Ukrainian government or armed forces.
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