LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Last winter, rather than give in to the weather, i started to run on a wooden indoor track, about 10 laps/mile. I eventually got to the point where I could run 2 hours there every night while the snow was flying outside. The pace was about 8-10 min/miles but I didnt count the miles or laps; I just ran for time: 2 hours. I came out of the winter months in the best shape of my life whereas without that running, I would have, at best, merely maintained my condition. The same thing could be done on a treadmill which is even better in that you could run hills on it and some speed. For motivation, I use an iPod with high tempo music. It worked for me.

Lydiard explained this to someone once as follows:

Q: What time can you run an all out 400 meters in?

A: 60 seconds

Lydiard then stated that that person must be able to run a 4 minute mile. When they said no way, Lydiard said "why not? you have the speed for it, dont you? So, obviously the problem must be that you lack the necessary endurance."

I parapharased but that was the general idea.

Nobby, HRE, Glenn, Kim and Tom,

I understand and agree about the importance of the 2 hour run, but how would you use that in training BOTH male & female high school athletes. Obviously none of you would prescribe jumping right into running for 2 hours, but would you even suggest this at all for ANY high school athletes, only the top runners, only the upperclassmen who have progressed to it over a year/several years, etc.? Or would you max out at only an hour and a half with these young males & females?

Just wondering how you would factor the 2 hour run, if at all, into coaching both high school males AND females.

Thanks in advance.

b

rhall:

Perhaps I shouldn't have put it in schedule. I think you did it right when you "felt good and kept on going". I'd suggest you try out one off day with one 90-minute day first; if you start to feel stronger, add another 90-minute. Most probably, scientific research will not going to prove 7-day training is better than 6; or 6 days better than 5. But it is attitude. One of my favorite lines by Lydiard himself is: "If you don't have time to follow the schedule as such; even if you go out and run for 15 minutes, even for 15 minutes, you're still winning..."

Hyena:

I think girls would be able to handle long runs even better than boys! Bear in mind, you should keep the effort, or pace, within themselves. Keep it slow and easy and, most of importantly, FUN.

For someone coaching both boys and girls at high school level, get them in several groups; say, two boys and two girls groups. Pick the leader in each group; they would make sure that they would turn around after the set time (30 minutes, 45 minutes, or whatever). They would HAVE to turn around after that set time and come back. The returning time should be almost exactly the same as the outward journey; if not, they would need to adjust the effort (or group) in the next session. As a coach, I would like to stay with the slowest group because they are the ones most likely need most encouragement. Tell them some stupid jokes or some inspirational stories, etc. They need to learn to start out slowly so they can complete the assigned duration COMFORTABLY. Of course, start out with, say, 60 minutes or so and work their way upward. You'd be surprised how quickly they adjust their effort and they become strong to handle a very long run. Sure, they would be some discomfort or rough time at first; but they come around very quickly.

Drunkenhyena,

I have my HS runners run 2 hour runs in the rotation I mentioned, 90, 105,120 in rotation. I had freshman girls on up. Aerobic work is the key. It does not matter how fast they do it, just that they do it. I keep them doing the rotation until 4 weeks out from the state meet. They are able to race well while doing the mileage. If you want more specifics, let me know.

Glenn

rhall: I tend to go with Nobby on this one. Don't put your week down as a 'set' schedule. Some weeks you may find you can run every day, others not.

However, if you want the answer to your question I would go with your second alternative. BUT : keep in mind what we are saying here.

The other guys beat me to this,problem being on the other side of the world and I end up writing this in your "wee hours" !!!!!!

I have High Schoolers who I start off gradually getting them to where they can run for an hour comfortably. We stick to that for some time, maybe 6 - 9 months or so then I crank it up say 10 minutes, gradually increasing the amount according to the individual.

I don't have my Seniors running anymore than 11/2 hours with maybe the odd 2 hour run thrown in if there is good company. We do all our running in Forests and on very hilly courses.

I aim at consistency with kids and they respond well.

As Nobby has said: Even 15 minutes is fine if that is all you have time for. For a kid who feels things are tough or they feel tired then I am a big fan of the "Out for 10 mins, see how you feel and then turn for home if you still feel bad" Generally these kids will be out for 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour.

Old story : Depends on the clientelle !!!

bump

Thanks for the input. I've always had my athletes do several runs in the 60-75 minute range. Every once in a blue moon, I'd occasionally have them go for a 90, but I'm thinking of possibly doing what Glenn suggests and do a 3 week rotation of 90-105-120 and see how that works out.

Would you guys also suggest having at least one, maybe two, other semi-long aerobic runs, say of 75-90 minutes each, for high school athletes? My kids have proven to be able to take on a high workload in seasons past, but I just don't want to really overdo it.

I don't have a problem with the extra long(ish) run at all. In fact we do exactly that if we have the time and especially if it is a nice day !!!!. I am lucky with the fact that the facility on my back door can give me choices.

bump to keep this on the front page.

Hyena:

Appreciate your effort! I just dug out the old New Zealand Runner magazine (you probably know this issue, Kim) with the article about "Arthur's Girls". It is about this running camp Arthur had with a bunch of girls (26 of them, I believe) ranging from 12 upto 20 years old. He had it somewhere up north of Auckland where the Iron Sand Beach is. I know that the main objectives of this camp was to "have fun with running" and "teach them basic principles of training including proper diet" as well as "getting them out for a long easy jog" and "work on some hill exercises".

In the eyes of Lydiard, I think getting young girls out for 90~120 minutes "jog" was nothing special. The key here is that they all had fun with it. And it can be fun. I have a picture of them going over some hills over sheep farm, dodging sheeps, with the biggest smile on their faces. One of the girls, Juliet, used to come to US with Arthur to show hill exercises and drills. Allison Roe, if I remember correctly, used to come out to join the group as well.

I really believe the problem with high school program is not so much of "running too much (=too far or long)" as opposed to "doing too much intervals and racing too much." Take advantage of races if they have to do a lot of them as well as hill exercises to sharpen them up; don't do any more intervals/repetitions if you can get away with it; use those early races instead.

I remember a couple of those girls really well. One of them, Alex Mingaye won a New Zealand Secondary Schools 1500m title in absolutely convincing fashion. Ran the field into the ground winning easily. Circa 1979. Another, Alison Taylor won the 1982 Secondary Schools Cross Country in a similar fashion.

Both walked away from the sport, something that upset Arthur intensely as he felt they had the potential to really go places.

Interestingly the girl who finshed 5th behind Alison was Anne Hare who made the 1996 Olympic 5k final.

6th was one of my athletes, Maree Turner who ended up representing New Zealand on many occasions and was 3rd in the World Mountain running champs some years ago.

I remember saying to Arthur a few years later that really he had a huge affect on the top 6 girls in that race even if he did not Coach them personally. But it still grated him that the best of them walked away from it all.

Here is my story on girls and long runs. I had coached Bradley Harkrader. He came to me by way of his mother who was a regular member of the group I have been coaching for nearly 20 years. His sister attended a neighboring school. She is more of a swimmer than runner. The girls xc team had 3 girls who were running 23-24 with poor coaching. The girls asked if I would help them. None of them had ever run more than an hour when we started in early September. We had them run 75 minutes, the first weekend, then 90, then 105. A light week followed then 105 and 120. The next weekend, after 5 weekly long runs, 2 of the girls run under 20, the 3rd was under 24. Two of these girls were freshman. Two of them qualified for state. That spring the same two, one swam during the winter, the other ran irregularly, qualified for state at 3200. One of the two freshman, Allison Gohl, ran 4-6 days over the summer. She ran sub 19 (mind you at altitude) and finished 15th at state x-c. She swam again this winter, but ran long runs every Sunday. She ran 5:20 and 11:17 to qualify for state. She was 3rd at 3200 and 14th in a field of 28 girls in the 1600. She returns this fall forher senior year, after finishing as the 29th female at Bolder Boulder, more as a fun-run than a race in 40:04.

The 2 hour runs are a regular part of her training. She promises to be tough this fall.

Glenn

I forgot to mention that also in that mix in 1982 was Christine Mcmiken who won an NCAA 10k title in later years plus a 7th place in the World Cross Country in late 80's if I remember rightly.

I will check results but I think she finished 2nd behind Alison.

An amazing set of young women who made their own mark on NZ running and all influenced or Coached by Arthur.

thx for the advice guys. If you dont mind me asking, Nobby, HRE, and Kim, what times have you guys run before, or are you coaches or what?

drunkenhyena wrote:

Nobby, HRE, Glenn, Kim and Tom,

I understand and agree about the importance of the 2 hour run, but how would you use that in training BOTH male & female high school athletes. Obviously none of you would prescribe jumping right into running for 2 hours, but would you even suggest this at all for ANY high school athletes, only the top runners, only the upperclassmen who have progressed to it over a year/several years, etc.? Or would you max out at only an hour and a half with these young males & females?

Just wondering how you would factor the 2 hour run, if at all, into coaching both high school males AND females.

Thanks in advance.

---------------------------------------------------------

I coach a high schooler from Texas who was running 30-35 miles per week a year and half ago. He had been doing 16 x 400m workouts regularly prior to my coaching him. Now, he easily handles 75 miles per week and he has done a weekly 15 mile run for 7 months without a problem and does very little anaerobic capacity work. He built up to it gradually over the weeks and once he reached it (about 1:45-50 minutes) it became a staple that provides no major stress to him. Rather, he immensely enjoys it. He's dropped from 4:52 in the 1600m to 4:21.8 and 9:33 for the 3200m, placing at the state meet 3rd. Anyway, the point is, if care is given, then longer runs are easily done by younger runners. It is all about gradually lengthening the runs over the weeks. It is also the consistency of training that allows for such increases in duration or distance. Tinman