pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
IAAF loves Paula. Coe himself declared Paula never tested positive. Why? Who knows!
Right. Right after he declared that he couldn't have possibly known about the covered-up/destroyed positive Russian samples. So much for his credibility.
Why did he say that, as the new IAAF President? Maybe to openly exert some pressure on the IAAF committee to come to the proper conclusions.
Huh? None of this comes from the athletes, but an understanding of the ABP process, and the rules to help ensure reliable success. The need for process "context" comes from many papers written by Ashenden to help show that the data is real, and that the athlete conforms to the model. The Sunday Times described the methods used, and Ashenden/Parisotto did not have this "context", just the leaked blood data.
just sayin wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Careful, I think everyone is getting tired of me repeating the same things.
Context is the many things not in the "leaked" blood database: doping control forms, recent training and medical history of the athlete, post-interviews with the athlete if necessary, documents detailing collection, transportation, storage, analysis, equipment calibration, rule changes, suspicion threshold changes, expertise in the anti-doping science and mathematics, etc.
I mean the public needs more context before being able to move beyond speculation, allegations, and hypothesis. They need it to give weight to any analysis. Otherwise even the most sophisticated arm-chair analysis is conditional: "if we assume ..., then ..."
The Ashenden/Parisotto allegations, were based on a preliminary analysis of an incomplete blood database, lacking urine test data, and completely lacking the aforementioned context. That is why they failed.
You are merely parroting the athletes claims of various extenuating circumstances
The more plausible and logical explanation is that the expert Ashenden has concluded that the data cannot be innocently explained by any additional context, hence the 1-1000 .
rekrunner wrote:
This fact would prompt me to re-evaluate my faith in EPO, and reassess its role in women's elite marathon performance.
cleans wrote:The fact that not a single EPO fiend has ever got within three minutes - yes, THREE minutes - of Paula's WR time is cause enough for suspicion, without the borderline blood scores and ever-changing cover stories.
Still the GOAT though, as she was playing the Russians at their own game and levelling the playing field.
Hi Rekrunner,
So you must have a view then on EPO, and its role in women's elite marathon performance. Is it:
a) no female marathon runner will benefit from taking EPO
b) some or many female marathon runners will benefit from taking EPO
c) no opinion
d) no comment
Only asking, because you raised this point!
That was incredibly circular. You are just saying Ashenden and Parisotta are wrong because IAAF said so. You are not saying that Ashenden, Parisoota, a Tucker or anyone else should be able to see a full data set. Just trust Saugy. The only 'context' you are offering is the IAAF report. WADA said nothing about Radcliffe. Pound was specifically asked about her and said nothing.
rekrunner wrote:
Careful, I think everyone is getting tired of me repeating the same things.
Context is the many things not in the "leaked" blood database: doping control forms, recent training and medical history of the athlete, post-interviews with the athlete if necessary, documents detailing collection, transportation, storage, analysis, equipment calibration, rule changes, suspicion threshold changes, expertise in the anti-doping science and mathematics, etc.
I mean the public needs more context before being able to move beyond speculation, allegations, and hypothesis. They need it to give weight to any analysis. Otherwise even the most sophisticated arm-chair analysis is conditional: "if we assume ..., then ..."
The Ashenden/Parisotto allegations, were based on a preliminary analysis of an incomplete blood database, lacking urine test data, and completely lacking the aforementioned context. That is why they failed.
The three organizations (IAAF, UKAD, and WADA) possess both the expertise and the access to the context to move from hypothesis to conclusions. They have investigated the media allegations, and offered their statements.
The public, still unarmed with context, must rely on faith: accept the conclusions in good faith, or respond with new, ever increasing, allegations of bad faith.
Yup yup wrote:Rekrunner- tell me again what you mean when you say you agree we need more context but then come back and say three independent groups reviewed, cleared, and moved on.
Here is more...if you like rambling conspiracy stories...
I looked for information on the managers of the top 3 men at the Rotterdam marathon today.
I could not find out who the managers are of the first place Marius Kipserem, or 2nd place Solomnon Deksisa. I did find out that the 3rd place finisher Geoffrey Kirui...is managed by ...Jos Hermens of the Netherlands!
I also found out that the winner of today's Rome marathon... in Italy, which was won by Amos Kipruto in his debut in 2:08:12...trains in a training group which has Dickson Chumba- 2:04:32 marathon, and Solomon Kirwa Yego-a 58:44 half marathoner. Both Chumba and Yego have another Italian manager by the name of GIANNI DEMADONNA.
Gianni Demadonna was also the manager since 2002 of Moses Mosop, 2:03:06 marathoner. Renato Canova has also been the coach of Moses Mosop since 2002. Moses Mosop at some point left Demadonna management...and at the time of his 2:03 marathon was managed by...Jos Hermens... of the Netherlands!
Moses Mosop has also been married to the world record holder in the halfmarathon at 1:05:09, Florence Kiplagat...who is also coached by Renato Canova since 2008...and managed by Jos Hermens (although I have also read that she was with Gianni Demadona management in the past...so I am not quite sure which management she is with now).
When Claudio Berardelli had his contract terminated by Frederico Rosa...because of the outbreak of weak mind disease at his camp... with 3 doping positives including Rita Jeptoo's EPO positive..
....he got a new contract with Gianni Demadonna!!!
Claudio Berardelli in the past... was also the coach of Stanley Biwott, the NYC marathon winner...and Priscah Jeptoo, 2:20:14 marathon, 1:05 half marathon while running away from Meseret Defar and Tirunesh Dibaba like they were high school girls... and 2012 Olympic marathon silver medalist. She used to be Rita Jeptoo's training partner and also has Frederico Rosa as her manager.
Here is an interview with Asbel Kiprop (managed by Rosa)...when Claudio Berardelli's contract was terminated by Frederico Rosa... and then Claudio Berardelli got a new contract with Gianni Demadonna management:
Here is a chronology of Italian managers and coaches arrival in Kenya:
1) Dr. Gabriele Rosa arrives in Kenya in 1991
2) Dr. Frederico Rosa arrives in Kenya in 1996
3) Renato Canova arrives in Kenya around 1998
4) Claudio Berardelli arrives in Kenya around 2004
5) Gianni Demadonna arrives in Kenya around... ???
fred wrote:
rjm33 wrote:.......Go Jo Pavey!!!.........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAVji5hK7-E......Hey Fred......
............Do you think you could get me Jo Pavey's phone number?........
Sure, Tel 0044 207935 8000
Fred!!!.......Did you enjoy this video of Jo Pavey...with Steve Cram screaming...."Come on Jo Pavey!!!!.." ....Jo is fantastic!!!...
I watched that video 37 times just last night!
..and thanks for getting me her phone number...
However...some problems developed when I called Jo Pavey last night...
...It turns out that I forgot about the time zone difference... and I called around 3:16 am local time...
...and then it turns out...her husband Gavin picked up the phone...and told me that I was a lunatic... and that he was going to call the authorities in Britain about me...
...so... next time I call Jo ...I will be sure to be more aware of the local time in Britain...
....After seeing the video...I am now even more in love with Jo Pavey than I was even a week ago!...
...........Go Jo Pavey!!!.....the real deal!!!..........
b) "Benefit" depends on the starting point, and can be physical and/or psychological.
cleans wrote:
rekrunner wrote:This fact would prompt me to re-evaluate my faith in EPO, and reassess its role in women's elite marathon performance.
Hi Rekrunner,
So you must have a view then on EPO, and its role in women's elite marathon performance. Is it:
a) no female marathon runner will benefit from taking EPO
b) some or many female marathon runners will benefit from taking EPO
c) no opinion
d) no comment
Only asking, because you raised this point!
rekrunner wrote:
b) "Benefit" depends on the starting point, and can be physical and/or psychological.
Ok Rekrunner, thanks for answering.
I actually don't have the knowledge to be aware whether EPO does indeed benefit women marathon runners or not, but I'm assuming that there probably are benefits.
Paula clearly thinks (or thought) that EPO benefits female distance athletes, and that her disciplines had a problem with them, otherwise I don't think she would have held up that 'EPO cheats out' sign all those years ago.
If Paula is 'guilty' of ABT's, then I don't see that being quite as 'cheaty' as taking EPO - at least it's her own blood, rather than a PED.
....Hi again Fred!...
I have updated my developing theory of weak mind disease...which I believe is also contagious.
I now also believe that weak mind disease actually had the first transmission of the disease to the countries of Kenya and Ethiopia...from the countries of Italy and the Netherlands.
What do you think about my developing theory of weak mind disease?
Also Fred...Do you know what the typical percentage of MONEY won by Kenyan and Ethiopian runners...is taken by the managers and coaches of these Kenyan and Ethiopian runners???
You are also correct about Rita Jeptoo spending a lot of time in Italy.
...look at the way she dresses!!!....
http://s.ndtvimg.com/images/content/2015/nov/806/rita-jeptoo.jpg
rjm33 wrote:
....Hi again Fred!...
I have updated my developing theory of weak mind disease...which I believe is also contagious.
I now also believe that weak mind disease actually had the first transmission of the disease to the countries of Kenya and Ethiopia...from the countries of Italy and the Netherlands.
What do you think about my developing theory of weak mind disease?
Also Fred...Do you know what the typical percentage of MONEY won by Kenyan and Ethiopian runners...is taken by the managers and coaches of these Kenyan and Ethiopian runners???
You are also correct about Rita Jeptoo spending a lot of time in Italy.
...look at the way she dresses!!!....
http://s.ndtvimg.com/images/content/2015/nov/806/rita-jeptoo.jpg
Wow. Imagine what she would have purchased with that half million dollars if they didn't catch her.
That weak mind disease is mighty powerful.
Hi again Fred... I thought you might like to see that Renato Canova agrees with me as to the cause of weak mind disease.....It is very interesting that we both agree about the cause of weak mind disease:She started again in 2011, running 2:28:09 in Rotterdam, then, at the end of the year, ran Frankfurt in 2:25:44 for the 5th position.In 2012, she ran Boston in 2:35:53, and finally understood that, with the husband as coach, her career was over. She joined the Group of Claudio Berardelli, and started to train with Prisca Jeptoo and some pacer.Claudio himself told me was surprised by the motivation, and the ability to work very hard, she showed with him. And she had the big skip of quality, arriving 2nd in Chicago with 2:22:04 (intrinsically worse than the 2:23:38 of Boston 6 years before...).She became more professional, having big motivation and good technical support, and in 2013, after winning Boston in 2:26, won Chicago running 2:19:57. Nobody could be surprised of this result, looking at her training approach.In 2014, the big victory in Boston (2:18:57), in a race where ALL THE BEST RUNNERS were very fast, because of the pace of Shalan Flanagan (same situation of Boston 2011 for men : not because the wind, but because the pace of Ryan Hall). So, no surprise at all.She was caught in a OOC test in Kenya at half of September. If doping is so effective, why she ran only 2:24:35 in Chicago, when already doped ?So, what did happen in the mind of Rita before Chicago ?She was in competition for the jackpot of 500,000 USD, and somebody purposed her some illegal support, explaining she needed to be sure to win Chicago in order to have the money. Rita had skiatic problems from the end of July, and her training was not very good, so supposed that, trying to take EPO, could replace the training she didn't do.The dream of so much money changed her mind, that became weak for that reason.Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7142840&page=3#ixzz45TVLD6C1
fred wrote:
rjm33 wrote:Autologous!...
Renato has known Rita Jeptoo and her coach Claudio Berardelli for years.
Frederico Rosa had to terminate Claudio's contract!!!
http://athleticsillustrated.com/editorial/claudio-berardelli-has-contract-terminated-in-light-of-more-kenyan-doping/and here are some other athletes managed by Rosa: Stanley Biwott, Asbel Kiprop, Bedan Karoki, and Paul Tanui.
Renato coached Rita Jeptoo earlier in her career.
Matthew Kisorio (nandrolone positive- 2 year ban) was also coached by Claudio Berardelli and managed by Frederico Rosa.
He raced at the Rotterdam marathon today!!!...but I do not see any results for him...maybe he dropped out...
.....I personally would be happy... if he did just drop out of races...forever!...
I thought it was straightforward. Let me try to correct some misunderstandings.Ashenden/Parisotto were wrong -- about the IAAF's inaction -- because the WADA IC said so.In my long list of examples, I did not say the "IAAF report" or "statement from Saugy". I do not consider these things "context".The "context" I defined are all the things EXPLICITLY required by the rules setup to implement the ABP. This "context" helps guarantee that all of the assumptions of the model (the one that determines probabilities of false positives) are met. These are things that you and I and Ashenden and Parisotto have not seen.If you think the IAAF/WADA/UKAD/Pound/Saugy/Radcliffe/Coe are not trustworthy, by all means -- I'm completely in favor of giving everything to independent experts, even Ashenden and Parisotto, and letting them play the full role of the ABP panel expert. So far they lacked the "context" to get beyond a preliminary screening stage.Ross Tucker might not be qualified to sit on an ABP expert panel, but by all means, let him review the whole package and offer his educated opinion.Pound and WADA did offer a pretty clear position regarding the leaked data for ALL athletes including Paula:- pre-2009 data cannot be construed as evidence of doping, legally or otherwise- post-2009 "atypical" data is also not necessarily indicative of dopingTo get past this stage of "not necessarily indicative" requires, you guessed it, examining the atypical value, including an evaluation of the documentation explicitly and formally required by ABP rules.
Yup, yup wrote:
That was incredibly circular. You are just saying Ashenden and Parisotta are wrong because IAAF said so. You are not saying that Ashenden, Parisoota, a Tucker or anyone else should be able to see a full data set. Just trust Saugy. The only 'context' you are offering is the IAAF report. WADA said nothing about Radcliffe. Pound was specifically asked about her and said nothing.
rekrunner wrote:Careful, I think everyone is getting tired of me repeating the same things.
Context is the many things not in the "leaked" blood database: doping control forms, recent training and medical history of the athlete, post-interviews with the athlete if necessary, documents detailing collection, transportation, storage, analysis, equipment calibration, rule changes, suspicion threshold changes, expertise in the anti-doping science and mathematics, etc.
I mean the public needs more context before being able to move beyond speculation, allegations, and hypothesis. They need it to give weight to any analysis. Otherwise even the most sophisticated arm-chair analysis is conditional: "if we assume ..., then ..."
The Ashenden/Parisotto allegations, were based on a preliminary analysis of an incomplete blood database, lacking urine test data, and completely lacking the aforementioned context. That is why they failed.
The three organizations (IAAF, UKAD, and WADA) possess both the expertise and the access to the context to move from hypothesis to conclusions. They have investigated the media allegations, and offered their statements.
The public, still unarmed with context, must rely on faith: accept the conclusions in good faith, or respond with new, ever increasing, allegations of bad faith.
Mary Keitany, 2:18:37 marathoner trains at the Adidas camp in Iten...and is managed by Gianni Demadonna also.
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/mary-jepkosgei-keitany-231010
.....Hmmm.....
How about some more history on autologous blood transfusions published in 1972...the year Lasse Viren won the first of his 4 gold medals at the Olympics:
1972-B.Ekblum,et al. Response to Exercise after Blood Loss and Reinfusion.Journal of Applied Physiology.1972 Aug;33(2):175-80. publishes about hemoglobin changes and exercise performance changes after blood transfusions. In the same year, Lasse Viren wins the 5k and 10k gold at the Olympics, and repeats both wins in the 1976 Olympics. There were suspicions of transfusions by the Finns, but we will never know for sure...
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6881090&page=57#ixzz45U7RY8DA
Do you just hate injections?
What if you could just take a pill...and have it work just like EPO injections... to raise RBC and hemoglobin levels?
As it turns out....you can!...
2009-2015-development of EPO mimetic peptides such as peginesatide and CNTO530 and development of orally active Hypoxia Inducible Factor(HIF) stabilizers. You can just take a pill which works like EPO. The Company Fibrinogen has compounds FG2216,FG4592, and FG4497, which stabilize HIF by inhibiting the enzyme prolyl-hydroxylase, which is involved in the breakdown of HIF by the ubiquitin proteosome pathway. HIF is a transcription factor which increases the gene expression of about 200 different genes, including the gene for EPO. So increased levels of HIF2alpha signals cells in the kidney to increase transcription of Erythropoietin(EPO), which travels to the bone marrow and binds to progenitor cells, and increases erythropoiesis, the production of new red blood cells, which is how HIF stabilizers work.
Another compound involved with HIF is cobalt chloride, which also acts as a HIF stabilizer, is orally active, but is not recommended, as it is toxic to the gastrointestinal system,thyroid, heart, liver and kidney and may cause cancer. There is now a blood test to test for cobalt levels.
Other recent research is looking at inhalation of the noble gases Argon or Xenon as HIF activators of erythropoiesis. They have both been used by Russian athletes, and both compounds have recently been banned, although I don't know if there is a test for them yet...The cheaters are always finding new ways to cheat and the testers are always trying to find new ways to test....
For further reading..check out: Simon Beuck,et al. Hypoxia-inducible factor stabilizers and other small-molecule erythropoiesis stimulating agents in current and preventive doping analysis. Drug Testing and Analysis 2012 Nov;4(11):830-45., from their special issue on Sports Drug Testing for Erythropoiesis-Stimulating Agents and Autologous Blood Transfusion... many interesting articles in this issue....
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6881090&page=57#ixzz45U9YiRMt
Do you think any runners or other athletes in other sports are taking HIF stabilizers today???
...You bet your expensive Italian outfit they are!!!...
...a recent 2016 paper on oral HIF stabilizers...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26656456
....a lot more convenient than EPO injections!...
...Hmmm...
Fred!!!...this is a good one... Here is what Matthew Kisorio, 58 min half marathoner, had to say about weak mind disease when he had a bout of it.
..I sure hope he is cured! ...
...since he is back from his ban of 2 years for nandrolone...and ran in the Rotterdam marathon today!!!......but dropped out........hopefully forever!
hmmm......the question is ...
What is the best treatment for weak mind disease?
Fred...
Did you read that part about cobalt choride as an HIF activator of erythropoiesis...but it is also very toxic and may cause cancer.
The human equivalent to the experimental lab rat would be:
...members of professional cycling teams...
There are already professional cyclists who have tested positive for cobalt chloride!
...Wow!...
....and people are getting all excited over meldonium...
Meldonium sales are booming...and many of the ads now say..."as used by Maria Sharapova"...
Hey Maria!....by the way...meldonium is not ever used for magnesium
deficiency or a family history of diabetes...
You should call the UCI or Paula Radcliffe...and get a better list of "plausible explanations"...because these are completely ridiculous...
Here is another interesting case of possible weak mind disease...
Zersenay Tadese...the world record holder in the half-marathon at 58:23 from Eritrea...
.....actually is based for most of the year in Madrid, Spain....
His Spanish coach has the name...Jeronimo Bravo....(Really?).....
Do you like how the conspiracy story is developing?...every day!...
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/eritrea/zersenay-tadese-189002
....still waiting on the 200 Dr. Fuentes blood bags....things tend to move a bit slowly in the Spanish court system...
Just a test...
