50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Happy Father's Day to all. We had a nice early celebration of Father's Day yesterday with a BBQ at our younger son's house. He was enjoying his first time on the receiving end of the celebration with their 9 month old daughter. While we were there our older son, who lives in NZ, called on Facetime. He was at a skate park watching my grandson, while granddaughter and mom were off shopping. We got to thoroughly heckle him about the fact that we were sitting outside in t-shirts and shorts while he was thoroughly bundled up in winter clothes including ski jacket.

My training recently has not been so entertaining. To borrow Rtype's words, Thursday "was the last straw as alarm bells went off in my head that I needed to pull the plug." In looking at my Strava data, it showed that I hit a high point in my fitness on 5/31 and have been on a steady downward trend for the last 3 weeks. My body was not recovering and adapting as quickly as I hoped for my plan to build up to a higher volume of training. Mostly, my legs have felt dead and I started acquiring those little aches and pains that can easily turn into bigger overuse injuries. So, I decided I am going to take next week almost completely off from running and then ease back into it starting next Saturday. Besides, my surfboards and bikes have been gathering dust in my garage for far too long and should be just right for a little light cross training.

Stay healthy!

Good job on the mile KP. We were close on in the virtual mile. Dan King killed it the other day, age grades to a 3:51. I ran the road on Friday at 5500' under decent but sort of clammy conditions. Low 50s, N wind 8 mph, doing an L shaped course with 0.3 into the wind with about a 20' drop and then 0.7 with cross wind and another 20' drop (rules allowed for 52 feet of drop).

Came in hoping for 5:25+/- a few but did not get that. 2:44 at the half and finished in 5:33 (converts to 5:26 for sea level--not sure if I'll get that officially because I entered my time as altitude thinking the Vdot calculator would do that. doh! on my part).

I tried to improve on that today on the track, but tanked after a half mile (2:48, so just cruised it in the final two laps and ran 5:49).

There was some talk about paces this week, so I'll put up workouts and paces.

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M - 5.9 miles at 8:38 (elev 7600-8000)

T - 8.6 at 8:01 (elev 5500) with 3X 800 at 3:03-04, and 4X 200 going 40, then 39 for last 2

W - 7.4 at 8:30 (elev 5700)

Th - rest

F - 5 at 7:54 (with time trial mile/warm up and cool down) at 5500'; PM 3.2 at 8:39 (elev 7400-7600)

S - 3.8 at 7:53 (with mile time trial and cool down); 5 at 8:44 (7600-8000')

KP The mile is a tough event. It does take some specific work and then it takes a few attempts to get your body ready to run well. Gool luck in your prep and smoke it. Igy. Sounds like you have a good ambitious training plan. Go get em. Old guy You are smart to back off. Listen to your body. CM. You are an aerobic monster. The mile must be painful for you to run. Glad your training is going well. As for me 60 miles this week. Two significant workouts were 10x600 with 200 jog btw followed by 6x100. And a 13 Miler at a good pace. Heading to Alaska on Tuesday for 3 weeks to visit kids and grandkids. They live in Juneau near lots of trails. Plan on fishing, hiking and of course running.

BTW That last post was from me Coureur des bois

happy Fathers' Day! I have a child with Type 1 diabetes as well -- she's 29 and moved out long ago, so her Mom and I are certainly not on point day to day for any kind of management, but we've kept up a reasonable worrying pace. Still remember running a club x-c race alongside her for the first time after her diagnosis at age 15 or so and asking "do you feel ok?" about every 40 meters.

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[quote]Rtype wrote:

Whew: Lots of information this week. Happy Father’s Day to the dad’s out there. I have 3 boys, a girl, and three granddaughters. My youngest son, who has juvenile diabetes, is moving out next week. I will be sad to see him move. Thankfully, the latest iteration of insulin pump (Tandem tslim with a hybrid closed loop) has, in a sense, replaced me as the safety-net after 19 years of doing that job.

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fun week of training albeit a little swampy -- the DC humidity is back

M 13 miles double

Tu 11 with drills & strides and 2 X (6 X 200, 200 jog) (3:00 between sets) -- first set 5k pace (average 44.4), second set 3k pace (43.1)

W 12

Th 9

F 9 with 5 X 4:00 (3:00 jog) at 5k pace (average 3:41 passing 1000 meters)

Sa 11

Su 15 with 6 X 90 sec hard hills (5:00 recovery)

Friday workout convinced me I can achieve my goal for this cycle (18:59 5k) provided I do it college basketball style -- go hard for 4 minutes and then take a long timeout for some ads

have a great week,

Dave

Nice VMs CM KP Rust busters to be sure.

Igy Nice to see you getting fired up but that is some seriously hard training you plan on doing.

But you know yourself well and that is the key knowing yourself

Well it was a good week no aches no pains no strains with some gains

50 minutes a day of slow jogging most of it in the sand ran really slow this week probably at 40 percent of mhr zone zero which I like

2 runs above zone zero

-60 mhr for 25 minutes in the sand

-70 mhr for 10 minutes in the sand

2 HIRTs 4x30' full recovery

-sprinting on bike jello

-sand dunes with the last one extended to 50 seconds felt strong but was still feeling the workout 2 days later when I decided to try and drop a sub 2:30 800 on the old wavy track

1 Speed day/800 TT abort

At 200 meters in I just was not feeling that good but my time was fast by 300 in 53 I changed to pushing another 100 and not doing the 800. 71.45 recovered quick decided to just do another 400 and was happy with a pretty even 70.66. I felt like I could have done another low 70s which would have been Nick Symmonds 800 predictor workout (3x400 R 4 minutes) So now I am curious as to how fast I can do the predictor workout but am not in any hurry.

I do have much better strength so now I will go shorter and work on speed again maybe get to where 16 flat is relaxed then do more endurance stuff. In any event I have found something new to me and that is fun. The 60 plus sprinters are amazing even though I would suck competing in 100 ...400 it would still be fun;)

Onward!

Happy Father's Day!

Ghost of Igloi, sounds like you have some challenges, but it also sounds like you are up to those challenges.

Inspired by Charlie and the Japanese video about slow running that he posted, I did another super-slow run today.

3 miles on the track in 37:35 (12:32/mile), 81 F. and sunny.

Fourth day in a row that I have run, which I am sure I have not done for years and years, so it was probably stupid on my part, but I have been going very slowly so I hoped it would be OK.

Despite slow pace I was panting in the heat over the last three laps. So it was probably a good aerobic workout.

Sweated buckets: when I got home I was dripping on the kitchen floor, so my wife scolded me mildly. Had a brief shower, then lay on the bed in a semi-stupor and had little interest in life for the next three hours, other than drinking and eating, then lying back down again.

Also during this leisurely interlude on the bed, I read a fair bit in the very dated book, Run with the Champions: Training Programs and Secrets of America's 50 Greatest Runners by Marc Bloom. Published in 2001 so it omits runners of the last 20 years. Features a lot of male and female runners I never heard of before, so that was interesting. Also books like this inspire me to do what I can.

Brittle Hold Your Horses!

Easy Easy means feeling REFRESHED AFTER the workout;)

Imagine if you had NOT counted laps , walked the curves and jogged the straights for 40 minutes.

For fun you could time a few 100s btw these are really fun and I do not mean sprinting the 100s just slow jogging them.

Remember the talk test?

Well I will make up a new test

The Day Dreaming Test

If you are not day dreaming during the run then it is a hard run;)

Panting is not part of slow jogging Effort needs to be EASY

Your heart rate is going to be a bit higher with the heat but cumulative stress is the issue.

Cortisol levels need to remain low walking is fine

Ha, yes the mile is painful. Normally, I approach the mile from a bigger base and do enough faster running to get by. This year it's a matter of too little and not enough speed work to put it all together. It's coming along and maybe I'll revisit a mile at the end of the summer. Enjoy Alaska and seeing your kids!

Our son is in his final summer there and will be moving to the Lower 48 with his girlfriend by fall. We got some really exciting news, and great father's day present, he was 3rd team Academic-All this year.

All-American that is.

Nice Mile Roger. Looks like they did grant you the altitude adjustment... 5:26 at M62. Super good. And a Level 9. It will be fun to see how the prize money divis-up. Hopefully, we can race together in the near future.

KP

Coyote Montane, congratulations on your son’s Academic All-American. Nothing beats seeing your kids do well. Also congrats on your super mile time. Someday I would love to run sub-6 again, but probably won’t happen for me.

Charlie, great training by you and thanks for the advice on slow running. (As if I needed advice on how to run slow.)

dhaaga, awesome workouts I can only dream of.

Coureur des bois, ditto. Have fun in Alaska!

old guy II, great idea to switch it up with some cross-training to give your body a break. I would definitely be doing some elliptical miles if I had access to my Planet Fitness.

Ghost of Igloi, great interval training program, just like your namesake.

PTF, looks like you are training hard. I see Charlie is advising you too.

Mopac, you certainly mix it up with the biking, kayaking, and running.

lucKY2b, 21.5 milres of activity is good. Hope you are feeling better.

KPdx, great fast mile.

Rtype, nice workouts. I can’t ride a bike either: makes my right knee hurt too. Pity because riding a bike does seem to be good cross-training for lots of people.

Newbi, you should post your training. I am sure people would read it with interest.

My week of June 15-21, 2020

This week I got carried away a little bit, doing too much running for my current level of fitness and not enough stretching and strengthening. What can I say, I JUST LOVE TO RUN! Hoping someday to run a little faster though.

Monday

Walking: 2 miles

Tuesday

Walking: 2 miles

RUNNING: 3 miles on the track in 29:54 (9:58/mile)

Strength: Upper-body (6 exercises x 3 sets), Lower-body (5 exercises x 3 sets)

Stretching: Regular stretches (11), Back stretches (9)

Wednesday

Walking: 2 miles

Strength: Lower-body (5 exercises x 3 sets)

Stretching: Back stretches (9)

Thursday

Walking: 2 miles

RUNNING: 3 miles on the track in 30:58 (10:19/mile)

Friday

Walking: 4 miles

RUNNING: 2 miles on the track in 23:21 (11:41/mile)

Saturday

Walking: 2 miles

RUNNING: 3 miles on the track in 35:58 (11:59/mile)

Sunday

Walking: 2 miles

RUNNING: 3 miles on the track in 37:35 (12:32/mile)

Stretching: Regular stretches (11), Back stretches (9)

Totals:

14 miles running

16 miles walking

30 miles of Brittle Master miloids

(A miloid is a unit of measure that includes running, walking, and elliptical.)

Could not resist , this guy has some pretty good stuff. I take NAM/Nicotinamide a form of b3 to reduce my skin cancer risks MOA is creating more NAD+ energy for the skin cells to function better. I also take NR nicotinamide riboside to boost my NAD+ levels but lots of controversy over the use of NAM to boost NAD+ actually counter productive but after digging in I clearly could see the issue was the rate limiting effect of NAMPT on the salvage cycle which would lead to a build up of NAM ergo down reg of Sirtuins and other good proteins ....Anyhow The study below...

Aerobic Exercise and Resistance Training Boost NAMPT levels in old fart muscle cells to youthful levels. So this is a huge deal it explains a lot. Complete study is open access and easy to read.

Dr. Brad Stanfield ref to study:

https://youtu.be/TViYsaUM8uk?t=617

SOLID mile there KP

Charlie, the Magill article re: recil was a nice share...thank you.

Managed 40 miles this past week...only my fourth 40 mile week of 2020...mostly a lot of nothing...EXCEPT for an impromptu 'foot race' against a 27 year old...I hit the turn around on my 8 mile out and back at precisely the same time as a young lad coming from the opposite direction...meaning we are now headed the same direction at the same time...just on opposite sides of the road.

He almost immediately lays down a surge for perhaps 250 yards...when he finally eases up, I reel him back in. The moment I do, he hits it again...I patiently await the conclusion of his pick up and put my foot on the gas enough to catch back up...one MORE hard drive, and one more catch up. Now we're running side by side...(reluctantly it appears for him). So, I compliment him on his tempo and inquire how far he's running and what he's training for. I ask how old he is (27) and then he says 'what are you, about 50?"...age 64 was not the answer he expected.

After exchanging a few more pleasantries, we approach one of two moderate hills...our anaerobic threshold 'tete e tete' is now about a mile and a half long...two and a half miles remain for me. Just for shits and grins at the beginning of the incline, I lean into it a bit...and then a bit more...drill down real hard off the top and now I've created a gap...which I proceed to extend until I could no longer hear his footseps.

When I finally arrived at my gate, I hung around 'stretching', mostly just to see if he'd come running past. Sure enough he did...about two full minutes later.

Aside from that, mostly just a bunch of old man jogging for the week ;}

Hoping your week of geezer traing goes swell...we're scheduled for 5 consecutie 100+ degree days, ugggghhh.

Catch up with you all next week.

your pal,

MF

Charlie wrote:

PTF,

This video clearly demonstrates the difference between neuro-m and speed work . Full recovery very short intense . Feel great afterwards sleep good raises HgH / IGF1 with minimal cortisol increase. Which is what older folks need.

Notice just how hard the 20 to 30 second effort are with 10 minute recoveries.btw this dude dropped a 7:58 3k a few days ago!

https://youtu.be/rPvYFmzn0Vg

Charlie...do you thing you a natural slow twitcher like myself can get elicit the proper response with the same techniques? Even back in the day when I was a 2:34 marathoner...which feels like another life...I could barely run an all out 400m faster than you just did the other day when you ran 71,70. I think my all-time best was 67. Today...90 secs is very hard for me. ..as is 100m in 21 secs.

However, even after an honest all-out effort over a short distance...at any age...I am pretty much fully recovered after a short period of time...no matter how deep I dig. It's like the body just doesn't let me go there. I'm sure other more enduring folks have the same experience.

So my real curiosity is...do I have enough power to go deep enough into my nervous system to get the response you speak of. I'm thinking it may require some modification. Just not sure what kind.

Thanks Charlie...

PTF Great Observation/Point

Maybe someone with very few type x fibers should skip trying to activate them;)

Predominate Muscle fiber plays a big role in how to train for sure.

Like most I am a MidTwitch not fast or slow .

Great eye opener.

On the TMH TreadMillHill deal like all these 30 sec bursts I feel weak rubbery but after a 4 or 5 minutes recovery I feel energized strong. That good feeling lasts several days as opposed to what I will call speed work (intervals or repeats) Hangover for a day or 2.

So how does your version of TMH leave you feeling?

Brittle Master 1958, thanks for encouraging, here is the last week:

Mo: 10x100m on dirt with slow walk back, 4 mile jog

Tu: 8.5 miles easy with last mile pick up

We: 1 h jumps, strength & sprints uphill, finished with rubber legs

Th: 8.5 miles easy

Fr: off, busy with work, tired legs

Sa: 40 min faster than steady in hills (zone 3, DL3, however we call it, it is the pace I want to push for 1 h in training as a "comfortably hard" run), pollen astma, tired, 25 min easy

Su: 100 min easy, hilly

goal of the last 4 weeks was the introduction of longer runs with duration of up to 100 min. Do I need to run longer for preparing 2 laps? I do not think so.

My idea is:

# accommodate to longer runs without injury or bore out, keep 2x times per week fast running

# introduce zone 3 running (e.g. 12 km hilly comfortably hard)

# introduce long intervals (long = 400...2000 m) or minutes on/off - however not during a week of zone 3 running which is a recipe to kill myself

# start track repetition work ---> THAT IS MY GOAL= doing 800m specific track work, but no interest in actual races

Happy to hear your opinion...

Good week to all, stay healthy

Charlie wrote:

PTF Great Observation/Point

Maybe someone with very few type x fibers should skip trying to activate them;)

Predominate Muscle fiber plays a big role in how to train for sure.

Like most I am a MidTwitch not fast or slow .

Great eye opener.

On the TMH TreadMillHill deal like all these 30 sec bursts I feel weak rubbery but after a 4 or 5 minutes recovery I feel energized strong. That good feeling lasts several days as opposed to what I will call speed work (intervals or repeats) Hangover for a day or 2.

So how does your version of TMH leave you feeling?

Charlie...several months ago I started with 4 x 30 sec TMH's at 10% at close to all out...with 90 sec recoveries where I walked at 3-3.2 mph on the 10% incline. The first rep was a little below all out as my nervous system needed to wake up. I increased the pace a little each to rep to where the last one was essentially all out. Bit by bit...I bumped the reps up to 8. I felt excellent and had definite improvement. I would run about 50 mins easy beforehand which seemed to actually work well.

I got to where the last rep was around 8.2-8.4 mph. This is probably a little slower than my 5K pace which was probably around 7 min pace...maybe a little under...but was getting faster.

After about 8 weeks I felt like I was stagnating...so I added 2-4 little 15 sec bursts...with a 1:45 walking recovery...after doing the 8 reps...where I'd experiment with faster paces and not falling off the machine.

Recovery was always excellent. I had very easy running or run/walking on 4 of the other days of the week, a 90 min steadyish run at 8:30-8:45 pace, and a track workout where I ran CV type intervals. I think the track workout may have eventually added too much stress.

A little after the point I stagnated, the gyms closed due to Covid so I did not have access to a treadmill. I tried to simulate the exact same 8 x 30 secs w/90 sec recovery on a steep road hill. I'd go all out up and then walk/jog down. I felt awful after these. Very beat up.

Re whether the 90 secs was enough recovery...it may not have been...but I definitely would not need 4-5 mins. I think a 2:00-2:30 would have almost brought me to full recovery.

Charlie...thanks very much for the time and attention. Very kind of you.

Newbi, wow, you are doing some serious workouts! I am not qualified to advise anyone else on their training, least of all 800 meters.

It does sound to me like you might want to gradually transition to more short track speedwork, but what do I know.

You said you aren't aiming to race, so I'm not sure what your "desired endstate" is as we used to say in the Army.

Looking for Hamstring Ideas

If anyone has any ideas for me on how to deal with what almost seems to be a permanent right hamstring injury, I'd love to hear it. Last year I took off 10 months from any kind of running or elliptical, expecting that would be enough time for a minor hamstring injury to heal, but after only light slow running this year, the pain is starting to come back. In addition to light running, I am also stretching and strengthening, but maybe not enough. Maybe I should try to find another PT to work with; I had a guy last year who was weirding me out because he liked to do cupping and stuff like that.