50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Regarding injuries as one ages. So I was thinking the other day. As we get older we run slower. As we run slower there is less pounding on our legs. So in one aspect as we get older we might be less susceptible to injuries like stress fractures. I have had three in my running career but none in the last 20 years. But on the other hand we become more susceptible to injuries as we age for a myriad of reasons. I'm not sure if it helps or not, but I do a stretching/strengthening routine which takes about 30 minutes at least five times a week. I also take several supplements. We will get slower as we age. The key is to slow that process as much as possible.

Coureur des bois wrote:

I'm not sure if it helps or not, but I do a stretching/strengthening routine which takes about 30 minutes at least five times a week.

Absolutely it helps. Look at your results, the proof is in the pudding. I've read other anecdotal accounts of how runners have gotten faster by doing more strength training.

I'm hoping my own extensive strength and stretching work will help make up for the fact I can't do much mileage. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I feel if I could consistently run 3 x 2 miles every week, a total of just 6 miles a week, I could run a 5K in 24:xx. But I haven't even been able to do that for years.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

I know you mentioned some health issues so maybe that's a factor, but also (in my non-scientific anecdotal observations), a lot of women (at all ages) don't have much muscle. Without sufficient power, you can't run fast.

I absolutely agree. I've always been very slightly built and even when I was "fast" in my 30s I had little toothpick arms and legs and zero sprinting speed. This has only gotten worse with age. I never set foot in a gym until age 40, when I married a gym rat and started reluctantly doing some weight work a few times per week. I'm sure this has helped slow my loss of power but certainly hasn't prevented it. Since the lockdown I haven't been to the gym in 3 months and my attempts to substitute exercises with body weight and a set of small dumbbells haven't been very successful. My gym just reopened yesterday but going to the gym still seems like a bad idea.

Then, right after the lockdown started, I came down with this polymyalgia rheumatica (which I'm still trying to get officially diagnosed, but there's little question in my mind) and had to completely drop all of my strength work for nearly two months. Now that I (for now) have the PMR under control with drugs, I've re-started the at-home weight work and it's really pathetic. I've lost a lot of upper-body strength since early March, and probably leg strength too. Just have to keep working at it steadily and try to build it back one step at a time!

AMK consider getting a Concept2 rower. Have noticed a huge difference in leg core/back / shoulder/arm strength . Been rowing for 8 months , about 20 minutes a day . Anecdotal stuff like moving furniture or digging up rhody roots lugging groceries all that stuff is noticeable ezr.

I was going into the gym a few days a week before this virus thing. So now I just make sure I do other things to keep my body responding well. I normally eat well which helps. Also my sweet spot in terms of mileage is 55-60 mpw. I could do more but then I would have to slow down on some of my workouts, especially my recovery runs which I have a hard time doing. I am a smaller person so normally am able to keep my weight right around 125, which reduces the pounding on my body. I try to run on trails(hence my handle name) or gravel which is easier on my legs. Every once in a while I go to my chiropracter to keep my body in alignment. And water. I drink lots of water. So there are many things we need to do as we get older.

Loss of elasticity is why older runners slow down and are more prone to injury. Old tendons store

and return less landing force energy which turns into impact force on the joints and muscles. That is why even though my running muscles are as strong or stronger than they were 20 years ago my times have slowed by a minute per mile. This is also why I run on the sand which does 2 things.... reduces impact force while increases energy needed to run so muscle/tendon/joint s are strengthened.

Pete Magill did a nice piece on this.

Quote: To improve recoil, you need to increase the energy it takes to stretch your tendons by strengthening the fibers that make up tendons.

Link to article:

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20842237/recoil-runnings-superpower/

Charlie wrote:

AMK consider getting a Concept2 rower. Have noticed a huge difference in leg core/back / shoulder/arm strength . Been rowing for 8 months , about 20 minutes a day . Anecdotal stuff like moving furniture or digging up rhody roots lugging groceries all that stuff is noticeable ezr.

I used to row in the gym sometimes. It does seem like a really good total-body workout. My main problem with rowing in the gym is that I overheat after 10 minutes or so. Maybe if I had one at home and could put it in front of a big fan it would work better. It's a thought.

I agree that if you know you are faster than the rest of the group, you should take off. I think too often though, the quality of the field is quite homogeneous (at least among the several participants) which can prompt the runners to consider running tactically.

Do you have a link to the data showing a 7% affect on leading? I’ve never seen that quantified before.

amk - When you were healthy, did you do any speedwork? I know you consistently run 10 miles most days but is it all at a slow pace? I don't think I've ever seen you post a track workout. I know I lose speed if I don't practice running fast. Since the risk of injury is higher with speedwork I focus on endurance, slack off on strength/ flexibility work, and blame my loss of speed on aging. Maybe that's not the whole story. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars ....

SCgal wrote:

amk - When you were healthy, did you do any speedwork? I know you consistently run 10 miles most days but is it all at a slow pace? I don't think I've ever seen you post a track workout. I know I lose speed if I don't practice running fast. Since the risk of injury is higher with speedwork I focus on endurance, slack off on strength/ flexibility work, and blame my loss of speed on aging. Maybe that's not the whole story. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars ....

Back when I was "fast", in my 30s, I did a minimal amount of speed work--usually quarter-mile intervals every week or two. I hated it, and I was slow, and as I was optimizing my training for the marathon I didn't think it was very important. I haven't done a real speed work session in probably 20 years now, partly because I hate it and partly because I'm afraid of getting injured. The only time I run "fast" now is in the occasional short (5K) race, and now there are none of those. Yes, I think I could get a little faster if I sometimes trained at speed, but I also think I'd be more likely to get injured.

SCgal wrote:

amk - When you were healthy, did you do any speedwork? I know you consistently run 10 miles most days but is it all at a slow pace? I don't think I've ever seen you post a track workout. I know I lose speed if I don't practice running fast. Since the risk of injury is higher with speedwork I focus on endurance, slack off on strength/ flexibility work, and blame my loss of speed on aging. Maybe that's not the whole story. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars ....

amk, what SCgal said....Actually, if I had to guess, a very small amount of up tempo work will give you a surprisingly big return on the investment (if you can do it safely). One day a week of whatever you feel is the safest thing to do. The main thing is to work harder than usual. How hard is a total judgement call on your part. Their are so many great examples here it is a virtual smorgasbord to choose from.

Coureur des bois wrote:

Regarding injuries as one ages. So I was thinking the other day. As we get older we run slower. As we run slower there is less pounding on our legs. So in one aspect as we get older we might be less susceptible to injuries like stress fractures. I have had three in my running career but none in the last 20 years. But on the other hand we become more susceptible to injuries as we age for a myriad of reasons. I'm not sure if it helps or not, but I do a stretching/strengthening routine which takes about 30 minutes at least five times a week. I also take several supplements. We will get slower as we age. The key is to slow that process as much as possible.

Age-related degenerative changes of the tendons & ligaments starts as early as age 40 and accelerates after age 50 for most competitive athletes. Some of the more common tendons & ligaments that can become problematic from aging are the rotator cuff, Achilles, lateral humeral epicondylar, quadriceps, patellar tendons and ACL/MCL. A lot of this is due to hormonal & vascular changes and the continued high-stress put on these tendons/ligaments through training & competition.

Like "Brittle Master1958," I currently weigh ~165, but on a very short frame of 5-6. I weighed 195+ when I played college football & ran sprints back in the late 70s/early 80s (age 59 now). After college, I did about 10 yrs of bodybuilding/powerlifting transitioning to running & triathlon in my early 30s (had some cardiovascular concerns that the cardiologist recommended that I lose some of the bulk and pursue an endurance sport - plus my father had died of a heart attack at age 40).

And like Brittle Master, I raced in my 30s & 40s at about 175 and was much faster than now almost 10 lbs lighter (PRs in my late 30s were sub 19 5k & 5:05 mile - about 40-45 miles per week training). But the "you know what" hit the fan in my early 50s with my first significant injury since my football days when I partially tore my Achilles at an all-comers meet. The was followed a year later when I partially tore my ACL slipping on the ice while running in a snowstorm (stupidity at it's best. Lol). A couple years later was the big one - a completely ruptured PTT of the ankle while sprinting on an uphill finish of a 5k. The ankle now has post-traumatic OA and will eventually need a replacement. To add insult to injury, in 2017, I got T-boned by a knucklehead who blew the red light while texting causing some significant injuries (back & upper body mainly).

So, now I'm regulated to 3 days of running (~4 miles a session at a 10 min mile pace) and a weekend mile TT at track depending on how I feel. 4 days are spent strength & cross training in the gym - and this is the key: I've been able to strengthen the quads, hams, back & hips which helps take the load off the lower extremities transfering impact forces to these muscle groups. I wouldn't be able to run at all without hitting these muscle groups 4 times a week with weight machines (stretching and other stuff is ineffective - you need resistant training). And this is why when the gyms shut down due to COVID, I was basically up a creek and couldn't do much running. Gyms are now just starting to reopen.

That being said, I do notice less muscle definition particularly in my upper body even though I lift weights upper body and eat heathy taking Whey protein & BCAAs. I just don't look the same as I did 10 - 15 yrs earlier due to the hormonal changes (my son pokes fun at me that I'm getting an "old man's upper body" ?). I have acquaintances at the gym around my age who are on TRT and look like a million bucks, but I'm not ready to go there yet. For one, I would like to see more data on the side-effects and risks on the organs with long-term use. But I'll tell you, it's amazing these how these guys in their 60s & 70s transform their bodies looking 10-15 yrs younger and with a ton of energy to boot (and notice all these "Low-T" centers cropping up everywhere being promoted by retired pro-football players - crazy).

My top end speed has slowed some to a lot (like 10 years ago I could still run 64-65 for 400 without any specific work, now it would more like 74, maybe a little under with a few weeks of work), and I'm noticeably a lot less flexible and spry compared to 50 or 55. But through last year, the mid-range speeds hardly slowed at all (I'll take a hit this year, but maybe bring some of that back over the next few months).

I agree with Charlie, that it's the tendons and attachments that lose their flexibility and strength. I try to do core work 2X a week, hip strength and flexibility 2X a week, dynamic stretching 2X or 3X a week, and drills (skips and bounds) 2X a week. Also regular workouts with (tempos and some sort of faster running: CV, V02, mile) almost every week. My biomechanics would go to hell if I didn't do all that.

AMK I row super slow 95 percent of the time so no sweating no fan needed. The workout did suck but over time as my long dormant aerobic upper body fibers became conditioned I started to enjoy the rowing. Now it is something I look forward to.

Well I was going to try another 800 TT on old wavy but at 300 meters in going way too fast and feeling it I stopped at 400 in 71.45. A bit miffed I walked around thinking out load and then I figured it out . Do another 400 at about the same time. Yeah workout salvaged, 70.66 on old wavy and windy. My form is coming around. WAG on a good track 68.x

https://youtu.be/xumw9swYS90

Nice work Charlie. You have some wheels!

Lots of good running talk here. Topped off by Charlie's live-action video, who could beat that presentation? Good 400 times, too.

I went to the track on my lunch hour and jogged 3 miles in 30:58 (10:19/mile), 85 F., sunny.

Thought I was going to die out there. Did most of the last mile in the Brittle Master Shuffle, hoping no carrion vultures were watching and getting hungry. Perked up a little bit on the last lap with a 2:09 (8:36 mile pace).

Eh, write it in the log, and work toward better days.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

Lots of good running talk here. Topped off by Charlie's live-action video, who could beat that presentation? Good 400 times, too.

I went to the track on my lunch hour and jogged 3 miles in 30:58 (10:19/mile), 85 F., sunny.

Thought I was going to die out there. Did most of the last mile in the Brittle Master Shuffle, hoping no carrion vultures were watching and getting hungry. Perked up a little bit on the last lap with a 2:09 (8:36 mile pace).

Eh, write it in the log, and work toward better days.

When you get a chance maybe you could video the "Brittle Master Shuffle." Might become a new type of dance.

oId guy wrote:

Do you have a link to the data showing a 7% affect on leading? I’ve never seen that quantified before.

My source is a comment by Ghost of Igloi the other day; I don't know where he got it. I'd be curious to know more about that, too. Some people do like to run from the front and seem to have some success with that approach. I get the part about wind resistance, but still, 7%?

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

oId guy wrote:

Do you have a link to the data showing a 7% affect on leading? I’ve never seen that quantified before.

My source is a comment by Ghost of Igloi the other day; I don't know where he got it. I'd be curious to know more about that, too. Some people do like to run from the front and seem to have some success with that approach. I get the part about wind resistance, but still, 7%?

Here's a source, it's runners world but a piece written by Alex Hutchinson, who is credible, and it has links to the original sources (older research papers).

And note that a 7% reduction in resistance doesn't mean 7% reduction in speed. More like energy saving for the final stretch. And maybe 1-2% benefit in total time, depending on wind speed.