rekrunner wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Can you explain your experience of professional cycling that enables you to make your observations about that sport and how it differs from elite running?
Do you also have experience of elite running and altitude training that you can make the observations you do concerning elites, non elites and cyclists?
These are particularly odd questions. How much experience does one need with elites to realize that these two sports are different, with different physiological demands, and different performance limiters?
"Can you explain your experience of professional cycling that enables you to make your observations about that sport and how it differs from elite running?"
I have directly witnessed the position of the feet in both cyclists and runners. For cyclists they are firmly fixed to the pedals, often with clip-on shoes for lowest energy loss, and are generally constrained to remain in a smooth, no impact, circular motion, while for runners, they are not fixed, and are in frequently repetitive contact with the ground, with high impact, and a high energy transmission into the ground with each footstep.
These differ observably and undeniably.
I am familiar with several papers that have analyzed the gait of running, and the many things that happen with each footstep to prepare the tendons and muscles to absorb energy on impact with the ground, and then return that energy passively, upon lift-off. This is a well-studied and well-known benefit of long term training, independent of the state of the aerobic cardio-vascular system. On a bicycle, there is no repetitive impact of the foot with the ground, and the importance of muscle and tendon elasticity, and factors like the "stretch-shortening cycle", which return lost energy passively, are, at the very least, different for the two events.
We have recently seen the importance of this particular aspect with the new shoes, which do not produce new energy, but help to passively reduce the losses of the existing energy.
Other observed differences:
- Grand Tours last 3 weeks, while most running events are over in minutes, or hours, not counting multi-day ultra events (where there seems to be little public concern of EPO or blood doping abuse).
- Aerobic/anaerobic balance differs in various events in running, from 800m to the marathon (and beyond). In the grand tours it is more like fartlek, with a variety of efforts in random sequence -- much of it "coasting" in a peloton, sparsely punctuated by short bursts of intensity, with a few continuous effort climbs thrown in.
- Cycling involves higher speeds, making overcoming wind-resistance a bigger factor and a bigger energy cost
"Do you also have experience of elite running and altitude training that you can make the observations you do concerning elites, non elites and cyclists?"
In your previous question, you tried to characterize what seems to you what I was inclined to believe. It was important for me to correct your characterization and properly characterize what I am inclined to believe, which includes a model based on diminishing benefits with increasing talent. This is a general principle that occurs in nature everywhere.
It's also a "consensus" assumption among scientists. For example, in the sports science blog posting you referenced earlier, Ross makes the same assumption and argument that the effects would be smaller for elite cyclists.
For elite running and training at altitude, I have the experiences that "performance expert" Renato has shared about the benefits of training at altitude, and, like everyone, I have access to historical all time performances.
For cycling, this same data, such as all-time performances at fixed distances, doesn't exist, but I have anecdotes from cyclists like Tyler Hamilton, who says that clean cyclists can win 1-day events, but not the grand tours, where a cyclist can extend a hard effort one day, and be fresh to attack again, the next day. Also for cycling Michele Ferrari has a blog where he explains some of the science, and some of the myths of doping and professional cycling.