El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

No, you didn't. Unlike Russian women athletes they apparently don't benefit from their doping. But they keep doing it anyway. Clearly, they don't know what you do, from behind your computer screen in your basement.

You say "no", but you keep quoting it.

I think Russia does know what I know, and therefore focus on women's events and men's race-walking.

Everyone can look up Russia's results from their own computer screen in their basement -- they don't need to rely on me to explain what is publicly available.

While you argue amongst yourselves about individual benefit from doping helping performances despite not knowing if they are doped, I find it more instructive to see if there was an end result, which often renders the point moot.

So, to be succinct - there is no benefit in doping amongst elites because you can't see it. You never will.

But they apparently do see it - because they keep doping. And you have no answer to that except to suggest they don't know what they are doing. You, on the other hand do - even though you have no experience of doping as they do.

As I have said, you are the embodiment of fatuous arrogance wedded to ignorance.

"Moroccans are not famous for performing"

Classic.

WR in 1500, Mile and 2k which have stood for decades.

Fastest ever Steeple

All kinds of medals during the Wild West years

Double World Marathon Champ

First 800/1500 double since Snell

Double World Cross Champion to disrupt Kenyan domination.

Opps, the last two were not "Moroccan".

I didn't select "Russian women" - you did; I was quoting you. Moron. And a liar.

Sweet EPO wrote:

"Moroccans are not famous for performing"

Classic.

WR in 1500, Mile and 2k which have stood for decades.

Fastest ever Steeple

All kinds of medals during the Wild West years

Double World Marathon Champ

First 800/1500 double since Snell

Double World Cross Champion to disrupt Kenyan domination.

Opps, the last two were not "Moroccan".

You described a handful.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I didn't select "Russian women" - you did; I was quoting you. Moron. And a liar.

You paraphrased something you understood me to say.

There is still no reason to talk about Slavs and GDR.

How does it make "logic and sense" to stick your head in the sand, ignoring what the rest of the world thinks when you don't agree with it?[/quote]

The irony is endless. Countless athletes over generations have doped because of the advantages they have experienced from doping, and antidoping authorities have been waging a campaign for decades to stamp out the practice because of the unfair advantages it creates. Yet, here you are, disregarding what they - "the rest of the world" - accept as fact because you don't agree with it. There is no longer any debate about whether doping aids sporting performance - but no one can ever prove that to your satisfaction.

You are a Covid denier who has somehow gotten lost in the drugs in sport debate.

Armstronglivs wrote:

So, to be succinct - there is no benefit in doping amongst elites because you can't see it. You never will.

But they apparently do see it - because they keep doping. And you have no answer to that except to suggest they don't know what they are doing. You, on the other hand do - even though you have no experience of doping as they do.

As I have said, you are the embodiment of fatuous arrogance wedded to ignorance.

To be even more succinct, this another cartoon.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Yes, you are an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect - although not in the way you might think. With your limited knowledge you have made it a feature to be certain about uncertainty. You're sure of everything except that doping helps elite performance. There your "unsureness" is unending. The dopers couldn't have a better defender.

They also predict that those smart enough to know there are things they don't know, are more uncertain.

Sweet EPO wrote:

"Moroccans are not famous for performing"

My real quote:

"not nearly as famous for performing"

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

How does it make "logic and sense" to stick your head in the sand, ignoring what the rest of the world thinks when you don't agree with it?

The irony is endless. Countless athletes over generations have doped because of the advantages they have experienced from doping, and antidoping authorities have been waging a campaign for decades to stamp out the practice because of the unfair advantages it creates. Yet, here you are, disregarding what they - "the rest of the world" - accept as fact because you don't agree with it. There is no longer any debate about whether doping aids sporting performance - but no one can ever prove that to your satisfaction.

You are a Covid denier who has somehow gotten lost in the drugs in sport debate.

Yes -- irony -- I am often accused of ignoring evidence you cannot produce.

What you call "accepted fact" requires a concrete basis to draw the conclusions you draw.

I can agree with it in part, for some dope, for some events, for some athletes.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I didn't select "Russian women" - you did; I was quoting you. Moron. And a liar.

You paraphrased something you understood me to say.

There is still no reason to talk about Slavs and GDR.

Still lying. I didn't mention Russian women and steroids till you did. But there is "still no reason" for you talk about anything that doesn't suit you - whether Slavs, GDR or Moroccans. No one can keep track of your shifting goal posts. Every argument disappears into the morass of verbal and semantic confusion that is your method. A polygraph wouldn't survive you.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

So, to be succinct - there is no benefit in doping amongst elites because you can't see it. You never will.

But they apparently do see it - because they keep doping. And you have no answer to that except to suggest they don't know what they are doing. You, on the other hand do - even though you have no experience of doping as they do.

As I have said, you are the embodiment of fatuous arrogance wedded to ignorance.

To be even more succinct, this another cartoon.

Well, you are a cartoon character. Homer Simpson with pretensions to education. Or Trump extolling disinfectant cures for Covid. You alone know what the rest of the world doesn't. If it wasn't for the internet your madness would merely be observed holding forth somewhere on a street corner - as solitary cranks used to do.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Yes, you are an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect - although not in the way you might think. With your limited knowledge you have made it a feature to be certain about uncertainty. You're sure of everything except that doping helps elite performance. There your "unsureness" is unending. The dopers couldn't have a better defender.

They also predict that those smart enough to know there are things they don't know, are more uncertain.

But you aren't really uncertain; you have made uncertainty your dogma.

Armstronglivs wrote:

No one can keep track of your shifting goal posts. Every argument disappears into the morass of verbal and semantic confusion that is your method. A polygraph wouldn't survive you.

One of the many myths used to avoid addressing the merits.

The many goal posts are just an illusion -- only one of them is mine.

Armstronglivs wrote:

But you aren't really uncertain; you have made uncertainty your dogma.

My certainty concerns your lack of specific knowledge and lack of conclusive data that would justify certain conclusions.

I think your problem is that you're looking at the WR through rose-colored glasses. Why are you putting emphasis on the 47% of fans that think or believe the WR is clean vs the overwhelming circumstantial evidence that suggests otherwise? Take off your rose-colored glasses and let's break this down logically:

#1 - El G runs for Morroco, which has a documented very high prevalence of doping. That should be your first red flag. Athletes that compete for nations that have a high prevalence of doping renders them highly suspicious for doping.

#2 - The WR was set in 1999 before there was any test for the detection of EPO.

#3 - The WR has stood now for over 20 yrs and I'm beginning to doubt that it will ever be broken given the existence of the ABP.

#4 - El G's training partner & pacesetter was Adil Kaouch, who was busted for EPO in 07. This is another red flag. Remember for about half the year Ramzi was training with Boulami and other Moroccans in the Atlas mountains. Usually birds of a feather flock together.

#5 - 4 out of 7 fastest Moroccan 1500 men have been busted for doping including Laâlou, who was busted twice. The four busted are Ramzi (CERA), Laâlou (EPO & a masking agent), Kaouch (EPO) & Mikhou (ABP - hematological anomalies). That leaves El G, Iguider & Aouita. Iguider's career was mostly under the ABP, El G ran pre-ABP & pre-EPO for most of his career & Aouita ran most of his career pre-EPO (depending when EPO first hit athletics) but could have been blood doping (no detection methods) and/or used anabolic steroids(test available) and/or HGH (no test).

If El G's WR is clean, then what about Iguider & Aouita? If they're clean then for some strange reason 3 out of top 7 1500 guys didn't dope while the other top 4 did? If Iguider was doping and particularly Aouita, then again, for some strange reason, El G would be the only one in top 7 fastest Moroccan guys that didn't dope at all? Seems unlikely, IMO.

So, given the circumstantial evidence here, why would you put more emphasis on a subjective survey? Why do you think or believe the WR is not suspicious?

Given Mikhou is an also ran. However, Kaouch won the silver at the 05 WC - far from an also ran. Laâlou and Ramzi are 3:29 guys with Ramzi taking 3 WC medals and one Olympic gold.

But if you look at the 5000, these guys were literally monsters! 10 Moroccans in the top-100 all-time! 5 Moroccans that ran 12:50 or faster! Lahlafi was the fastest (12.49.28) which is 18th overall in an event dominated by East Africans (who would have thought. Lol). Find me a country of comparable population that has put that many runners in the top-100.

You've twisted Joyner's statement so much now creating confusion that I don't know what your point is anymore? (that the WRs are probably clean and not doped because Joyner said "you just don't know?").

My take on his remarks is that all the WRs can be considered suspicious.

I'm sure 57% of the running public would find your 5 red flags compelling, and your circumstances overwhelming.

The point was that your foregone conclusion is also not "universal".

I happen to agree with your expert Dr. Joyner about potential improvement, and uncertainties about specific performances.

You can find my points by reading the untwisted parts of Joyner's statements I put in double quotes.

Or use Armstronglivs' restatement in his own words.

rekrunner wrote:

Sweet EPO wrote:

"Moroccans are not famous for performing"

Classic.

WR in 1500, Mile and 2k which have stood for decades.

Fastest ever Steeple

All kinds of medals during the Wild West years

Double World Marathon Champ

First 800/1500 double since Snell

Double World Cross Champion to disrupt Kenyan domination.

Opps, the last two were not "Moroccan".

You described a handful.

Huge hands and as big as any other handful from other countries.

rekrunner wrote:

Sweet EPO wrote:

"Moroccans are not famous for performing"

My real quote:

"not nearly as famous for performing"

And also incorrect. They are equally famous for both since the two are inextricably linked.