LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Yeah Baby!!!Construction for peaking an a specific day? I've got a 73 page book for you, Nobby! :)

Why don't you guys just email each other and let this entire thing disappear, start a new thread entitled "dear friend"

Um, we are demistifying Lydiard here, you know, the part about "it's all base" and stuff.

This isn't Valentine's messages.

Good luck with your projects Nobby. You have one heck of a task on your hands, trying to explain Arthur's training ideas. As you have stated many times, disagreement and mis-interpretation of his ideas are the norm.

"Beware Of Dogma"....you have a name that puts people on the defensive. Should we all beware, OR, do you respond to what you think is Dogma?

The Coe/Martin book at least gives THEIR definitions of endurance, stamina, strength etc.

Multipace training, Dudes. That's where it's at! And Coe/Martin/Daniels and others say "my program is multipace", but, I suppose, over the year, so is Lydiard, eh?

Darren, just keeping you guys on your toes. Or should that be on your forefoot?

As for multipace training. I agree that training should always be a pyramid of intensities.

I recognise fourteen distinct paces for middle and long distance runners, from recovery up to 100m pace.

Happiness is sharing... Happy Valentine's Day.

Nobby wrote:

By the way, nobody here talked about running "style" (not running "form" or "technique"). Are we down-playing this topic?

Great photos of Willis and Mottram by the way...thanks, letsrun, for posting them. I the actual moving film, it would become obvious how Willis pass Mottram...

umm, I think I posted something about technique under the name Lydiard Microcycles.

Oh aren't I just sooo annoying, posting under psilly pseudonyms?

Actually, why don't you not open the thread. It's a free world, you are free not to look. Sorta like your teeeveee and radio and the rest of the net.

You telling us to make it private, sounds kind of ...controlling.

ahhhh freedom. At least where we come from we don't wiretap people ha ha ha. What an embarassement that is for the US...wiretapping athletes on gambling. There are much bigger issues in the world...

Anyway, keeping this on a Lydiard theme or training theme.

Nobby, would AL suggest dropping mileage or run quantities, once you introduce speed/amaerobic training???

Oh hey, Dogma. Jeckyl and Hide, stir the pot, create better discussions. Things can get stagnant and, um, Mucusy, unless someone comes in and challnges the party line! You know my first name! Clues man. Who are you? Who who who who?

Yeah...there's lots of "zones" physiological. Perhaps some coaches target them, and other coaches stumble upon them.

Beware of Dogma:

See, a problem with e-mail or message board is really you can't get the "tone". Absolutely not; on the contrary, I welcome your "dogma". It's been fun thinking the counters. Hey, if Skuj has not been a pest to me, I don't see who else can! (Skij: I said you're "not" so don't get me wrong).

In regards to "style", in fact, I meant a bit different from "technique". Most of us run pretty much correct "technique" or know about what correct technique should be. Straight back, arm swing straight, look forward and not down, lift your knees, etc. That sort of things. "Style" to me, is more or less what Lydiard explained as "driver" and "puller". Frank Shorter once said, while commentating world XC, who's the best "mudder" is. That sort of things. I didn't want to say anything specific because, once you generalize something, you get crucified at letsrun.com message board; it dawned on me, looking at pics of Mottram and Willis the difference of their "styles". Willis has very choppy strides while Mottram sort of leaps. At the end of the race, particularly in a short distance like 50m to the finish, everything else close to equal, choppy stides will have the advantage because they are on the ground longer; thus generate more power. That's more or less Nakamura school's thinking (remember Seko's choppy strides?). But seriously that IS another consideration and YOU and pictures of Willis and Mottram reminded me of that.

Dr. E:

Here's another answer you'd hate; yes and no. Main training, yes. You should drop the mileage because naturally you're running harder. In general, overall mileage will and should drop. However, now with faster, more exacting and "anaerobic" running you're doing, you should check out to make sure you do lots of easy jogging; be it warm-up/cool-down combo or morning, or supplementary, jogging. You may be able to get away from jogging twice a day during conditioning because most of your runs are supposed to be aerobic. But once you start anaerobic training and other more physiologically demanding workouts, you should include easy jogging in the morning--the longer the better; up to an hour or more if you can.

Skujomatic,

In case you were inferring that I may be any of those psuedos, I'd like to tak ethis opportunity to let you know that NO, I am only posting as Dr. E on this thread and only Dr. E...thats it

No I do not hate the yes and no and the yes or no.

I suddenly might be faced with the opportunity to run extra and don't want to get caught doing chores at home when I could be running isntead ha ha ha!

Thanks Nobby.

E, wassssuuup? Why not Cedar? Expand that pacath thread dammit. It begs to be worked on a little. Some Military Things may take me away from Bazan. I'll maybe do a track trial instead.

So, like, tonight I'm gouing to do 6x800m in 2:39, 2:37, 2:35, 2:33, 2:31, 2:29, with maybe 4min recovery.

This represents starting at 5km goal pace, and ending at faster than 3km goal pace.

Dogma, am I exploring more than one physiological zone, and are zones being explored enough for a benefit? Does the recovery period at this pace matter? Be dogmatic!

Nobby, would Arthur shake his head at the amount of control? Would he say "just run, baby"? Be pragmatic.

No man. I searched for Dogma. He speaks of Ovett and other things that make me think I know who he be! :) It's all good. Not like that other placey place.

Dr. E wrote:

Skujomatic,

In case you were inferring that I may be any of those psuedos, I'd like to tak ethis opportunity to let you know that NO, I am only posting as Dr. E on this thread and only Dr. E...thats it

nobby, et al:

guys, this is, in my opinion, the BEST thread on letsrun. i've been checking it daily for over a month now and amazed at the new and interesting info posted each time. great stuff. i am a high school coach whose background was not in track/xc. i played team sports until college, began road running for fitness, progressed to road racing, xc racing, coaching. lydiard v. daniels is something that i have been battling over since i began running and researching how to get better as a competitor. i've learned so much here. i look forward to the website when it gets going.

great stuff and keep it coming.

I keep thinking the thread will have something to say about the title of the thing

I tend to agree.

For a while this was a great thread and Nobby has given so much excellent info.

But lately it has generated into a "Right on!" type cheerleading session and has become unmanageably long.

This will not break any records; eventually these super-long threads are shut down due to bandwidth issues.

It would be much better to begin a new thread and discuss these issues, rather than posting training logs, etc.

The original topic was "Lydiard vs. Daniels." This is no longer the discussion, ergo, a new thread is a good idea.

The discussion is fine. Again, you guys do not have to be involved, free world, do not open thread if it bothers you.

There are all kinds of non running threads, about beautiful Afrikan women, rock bands and random strangeness that could be removed or commented on or ended. Leave the real running one alone.