LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

I've been looking to see if there's anyplace selling the Marup. I get teasrers, places that list it but don't seem to have it in stock when I try to order it.

Jason is the man:

Thank you for reminding me, howver, all due respect I coached national level athletes as a professional coach in the past--I think I know that things are not that simple. The whole idea of my post was, in a simple way, to explain what the initial approach to training should be according to the Lydiard princiles. I wasn't even trying to explain the Lydiard system in 5 words or "idiot-proof" way; in fact, I just explain how Lydiard used to explain in a bit more detailed way. If I came off as trying to simplify real-life, I apologize. Perhaps my use of "for the argument sake" threw you off a bit...?

If I think things can be resolved so simply, I wouldn't have put together 150 pages of powerpoint to explain what the Lydiard training is all about--and this is only part one of three (I'm at about page 50 for part two and still going strong). I know you understand that Lydiard Way is not just this way or else that. But many people take it that way; and quickly jump to conclusion and create yet another myth.

In regards to your comment on "speed"; you're absolutely right. In fact, at the international level, speed is EVERYTHING "IF" eventhing being equal. Of course, as you have pointed out, everything is not--paarticularly for two athletes you used as comparison. Ritz and Bozakowski are made for different events at (hate to say) different levels.

Jason:

Yuriy Borzakovskiy got 45 something 400m speed

and then he is cabable of running he's 2 laps at 51 speed

That's 6s slower per lap

But then Ritz maybe would be able to run a 400m in 50s, and then he might be able to run the 2 laps in 55s speed if he trained for the event.

That's 5s slower per lap.

But because he would be a lot slower in the 400m he wouldn't win even though he got better endurance.

I'd put money on Ritz having a higher maximum lactate steady state than Borza. Using the 800m event as a measure of maxLass is fairly inappropriate. The 800m does require a large speed/anaerobic power component which Ritz obviously doesn't have - by nature or nurture - relative to Borza. If we extend the racing distance out the 5k or longer, then Ritz will win hands-down because he does have a higher maxlass and speed/anaerobic power requirements are a relatively small contributor to overall performance.

Does this mean one should ignore aerobic conditioning if competing in the 800m event? Certainly not! It is just a simple fact that to do the 800m well one must have the requisite "speed." Combine the two key components - aerobic and anaerobic capacity - and you have yourself a fast 800m runner. Lack even one element and you have a mediocre 800m runner.

The same can not be said for distance races. One can have a huge aerobic tank and a low anaerobic tank and still do quite well - though they will likely be unable to win any sprints at the end of races. Think Bob Kennedy - he had a great aerobic capacity (when it top shape) but his anaerobic capacity was not so high. He could run with the best 5k guys in the world for 4000m but they had better closing speed. They matched his aerobic capacity but had better anaerobic capacity. Just the facts - it sure wasn't for lack of effort on Bob's part. He did work his keister off in training and stuck his nose into the battles, never chickening out of anything. I admire that greatly!

In summary, the event demands really factor into the analysis about who is more "fit." Fit for what, we must ask?

Spider:

Thanks for asking about the project. As usual, it's taking longer than expected and I apologize for keep "lying" about the time-line!

I'm going to Boulder next week to get together with Lorraine, my partner on this project, to finalize the direction we'll be taking plus the over-all "image" of the website. It's looking pretty good. I wanted to put the hill training footage first just to keep my word but figured it's better to wait till the website would look somewhat presentable. We'll be going over the script for the hill training video in Boulder as well.

Once this is done, we'll get together with Greg McMillan and Jonas Holdeman, perhaps in March, to go over more details. Then have a quick retreat with some of the advisory staffs like, Peter Snell and Dave Martin, to make sure materials are correct.

Realistically, I think we'll get the website up by April (so much for Christmas, 2005, sorry Jesse and Oasis and...whoelse, Ronin???). It's slow right now but it's still going and, as Japanese Zen master would say, "the tree might look dead in the winter but it's growing the root further down and wider." Seriously, you know what I mea, HRE!

Nobby, all due respect, you have been downplaying the importance of Speed Endurance on this thread.

Endurance, Speed Endurance, Speed and several tecnical apects are all equally important. They all help each other.

"...all equally important"

So is nutrition. So is, as Lydiard would say, "ankle flexibility". So is euqipment (particularly shoes). So is tactics. So is sleep/rest. So is "physical threapy" treatment.

You know, in fact, most Americans only talk about training. Shower vs. bath; brown bread vs. white bread; do you wear socks or not; how about sun-glasses? Japanese DO go way beyond that. Lydiard and I together picked Naoko Takahashi as the favorite for Sydney Olympic marathon because of ourknowledge on her coach, Yoshio Koide, being someone who considered "EVERYTHING" including things I mentioned above...and more.

I don't expect all these ("everything") to be discussed on the letsrun.com thread; let alone "Lydiard vs. Daniels" thread. People are already complaining how long this thread is. If you want to learn more about "everything", I'd suggest you do something else beside visiting website and seek advice from mostly people who don't even identify themselves.

Besides; what is "Speed Endurance" anyways? I know it became popular when Coe was breaking the records in the 80s. To me, it's sort of a convenient way of saying not one way or the other, just take the middle???

Okay, I'm kinda messing with you. Yes, I've actually been down-playing a lot of things. I'm assuming when you talk about "Speed Endurance", it's more or less combination of speed and endurance. It is one of the hidden lines that not too many people take notice in the Lydiard's literature; "just because you've developed good aerobic base and developed good anaerobic capacity to withstand oxygen debt, that does not mean you can race well." You have to be able to combine those two together and, from my observation, here we go again, not too many Americans talk enough about this. Americans LOVE doing repeats. If it's not 20X400, it's 5 by 1 mile or 10X1km or something. It's always in a form of repeats--even in the critical stage right before the competition starts; they keep preparing their body to "have a rest" in between.

I've already been criticized by my own colleagues that I've been talking too much here (although, like you said, the actual fact is that I have been down-playing a bit). If you think that you've leanrt enough and there's nothing more to know about the Lydiard, fine. But we will really go full-power once the Foundation gets launched (or "if"?). We've got many exciting "advisory staff" on board to tap in; I think it'll be very interesting... For one, I'll get Dave Martin on the topic of "Speed Endurance"!

Nobby....you don't talk too much. Never stop. God I Love This Thread!!!

I did some speed endurance today. I did 75min at an easy, relaxed, conversational pace. This will allow my "speed" to have some "endurance".

Hahahahahahahaha.

OK, I AM serious though! So many phrases that so many coaches and scientists don't even agree on. Like I said, your 400m PR can be 42, but if you get to the bell feeling like hell.....

Skuj:

It's like the weather in Seattle: the guy said, "It only rained twice last week; once for two days, once for 4 days..." Is that what you telling me about how I "talk"?

Okay Nobby-san, don't get me started about the weather here in Seattle ( " . . . we had great weather last summer . . . both days . . .").

The topic of Coe and speed-endurance brings up another tangent.

It is a truism bordering on banality that runners come from different molds and a good coach will recognize that some need different approaches. It always struck me that Coe simply had to have a gift of unusual endurance when he was "in his gear", and his coach worked hard on building strength and legspeed into a runner who was otherwise quite thin and week. But Coe just seemed to float like a deer at 57-seconds-per-lap; I think it took a lot of hard work to bring that "gear" down from his schoolboy form of 64-sec. But I believe he simply had a gift for floating at pace that others didn't have, something he could do without 100+mpw but with more intensity. And most people who tried Coe's training haven't and won't achieve the same results, they just don't have the gift.

Alternatively, Snell had unholy rugby-quality strength, but needed a Lydiard to add a layer of endurance which likely seemed otherwise unnatural to him. Ryun was so talented, and so willing to work, that almost any system of hard work would have produced results.

Sometimes looking at what training a Coe or Ryun did is only half-valid; a bit like looking at what type of education Newton or Chopin had. Studying the training is meaningful, but it may not mean a lot to a talentloss sod like myself.

I enjoy most reading about coaches who got a lot out of scores of athletes: Bowermans and Lydiards of course, but also Jumbo Elliot (name THAT's a great coaching name), Arch Jelley (sp?), or John McDonnell (sp?) at Arkansas. I especially enjoy reading about the not-so-talented folks who have good success with a system, like Ron Daws or our friend Mike (last name?) with his blog.

Hahahahaha!

"Beware Of Dogma"....you have a name that puts people on the defensive. Should we all beware, OR, do you respond to what you think is Dogma?

The Coe/Martin book at least gives THEIR definitions of endurance, stamina, strength etc.

Multipace training, Dudes. That's where it's at! And Coe/Martin/Daniels and others say "my program is multipace", but, I suppose, over the year, so is Lydiard, eh?

Nobby: Discuss the various Lydiard paces over a year. Please. (5000 words minimum, OK? Hahahaha.)

Okay, Skuj... I'll get suckered in to this one. How's this: 1/4 effort, 1/2 effort, 3/4 effort and occasional 7/8 effort. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah....a!

Now I know Bowerman didn't like this...

Hey Nobby!

What did you mean by the statement, "I know Bowerman didn't like this.?"

Tinman

He said (perhaps not publically but told me so!) that he didn't like that effort distibution method (1/4, 1/2, 3/4...). He's American; what do you expect!

O..OXXXX

Nobby wrote:

He said (perhaps not publically but told me so!) that he didn't like that effort distibution method (1/4, 1/2, 3/4...). He's American; what do you expect!

OK, how about this:

Sprint, anaerobic capacity, aerobic capacity, tempo, aerobic conditioning, jog.

6 zones of running that many non-Lydiardites might like to point to and say "look how cool my program is".

So, for each one, where is it seen in Lydiard training? (I believe I know most of the answers, but, I think it's a good exercise for the "mutipace modellers" in the vast audience.)

...........................................................

Tinman, where's yer site? Did it get moved to another address?

Cheers

Skuj

Sprint:

50/50, sprint drills, some hills, sprint time trial

Anaerobic capacity:

50/50. 100/100, repetitions, time trials (middle distances), some hills

Aerobic capacity:

Time trials (long distances), 1/2 & 3/4 aerobic runs

Tempo:

Time trials (long distances), 3/4 aerobic runs

Aerobic conditioning:

1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 aerobic runs

Jog:

1/4 aerobic runs, warm-up & cool-down, supplementary runs

Plyometrics:

Hill training

Weight training:

Hill training

Stretching:

Hill training

Here's a question to you:

If you want to peak on a specific day, how do you construct your program?

I should also add:

Coordination of aerobic and anaerobic:

Time trials (race distance)

Tactic practice:

Time trials (race distance)

Speed endurance:

Longer repetitions, time trials (middle distance), some hills

Learn to run at correct pace:

Pace judgement runs, time trials (race distance)

Learn to run by "feel":

1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 effort runs