LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

I'm still chewing on Nobby's recent musings! Give me time! :)

In the meantime, look what some Canucks did:

Finals

1 Boaz Cheboiywo Kenya 7:35.65

2 Adam Goucher USA 7:41.59

3 Kevin Sullivan Canada 7:42.17

4 Nate Brannen Canada 7:47.90

5 Chris Lukezic USA 7:49.05

6 Daniel Lincoln USA 7:49.45

7 Luke Watson USA 7:57.14

8 Gareth Turnbull IRL 8:09.60

Sully's time is a new Canadian Record....even beating Scheibler's outdoor 3k.

And.....who is this? :)

PROGRESSION

Season Performance Wind Place Date

5000 Metres

2003 15:47.80 Victoria, BC 18 07 2003

2001 15:39.77 Victoria, B.C. 25 05 2001

2000 15:30.36 Montréal 08 07 2000

1999 15:48.10 Portland 15 05 1999

1998 16:41.08 Eugene, OR 31 05 1998

10,000 Metres

2001 32:32.52 WALNUT, CA 20 04 2001

2000 32:21.27 WALNUT, CA 14 04 2000

1999 33:04.47 Winnipeg 26 06 1999

Half Marathon

2004 1:14:14 Edmonton 16 05 2004

Marathon

2003 2:35:40 Chicago 12 10 2003

2001 2:40:16 Edmonton 12 08 2001

HONOURS

Rank Performance Wind Place Date

10,000 Metres

8th IAAF World Championships 20 f 33:00.37 Edmonton 07 08 2001

27th Olympic Games 19 h128 34:46.04 Sydney 27 09 2000

Half Marathon

14th IAAF World Half Marathon Championships 39 1:16:12 Edmonton 01 10 2005

Marathon

8th IAAF World Championships 33 2:40:16 Edmonton 12 08 2001

Long Race

28th World Cross Country Championships 42 27:59 Vilamoura 18 03 2000

27th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 17 29:24 Belfast 27 03 1999

IAAF World Cross Country Championships 55 28:11 Marrakech 21 03 1998

25th IAAF CROSS COUNTRY CHAMPIONSHIPS 77 22:44 Torino 23 03 1997

Short Race

32nd IAAF World Cross Country Championships 35 14:10 Brussels 21 03 2004

IAAF World Cross Country Championships 28 15:53 Oostende 25 03 2001

Not sure if it is up to date. (1:12 Half?) I wonder if the person who owns those honours could comment here about "mileage". According to my sources (hahahaha) you did 60-70 then, and maybe 80-100 now? Do you regret not doing 80-100 then? Sorry if that sounds like a harsh question....but at 60-70 you did extremely well! Does 80-100 reflect a) new coaching, b) new focus (ie Marathon) or c) new outlook on training, or any of the above?

Cheers

Skuj

Nobby wrote:

CGP:

With all the mega-mileage they were doing back then plus all the non-high tech running shoes they were running in; I'm sure they were getting injured right and left...

Lots of runners still get injured now.

CGP:

Actually that's my sarcasm--I'll bet perhaps more people today get injured despite all the advice about NOT running as many miles and all those $120 shoes with so many features. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Hey'all!

CGP, I think His Nobbyness was being clever! :) Waaaaay back on page 20-ish I was beginning to get a feel for his unique sense of humour.

Let me save you a post Nobby: Those who DON'T put in the grunt work will be the injured ones, trying to place icing where there is no cake! (How'd I do Nobby?)

HRE, I appreciate your input, as always.

Hey Nobby, many of my timed efforts are on unknown distances. Just approximations. This boosts concentration on FEEL instead of PACE. Pace is important sometimes though, but feel must always come first. CONTROLLED speed rules! Pace don't race. Train don't strain. Exhilerate don't devastate. If targets are met, but it feels like a big struggle, then you have failed, and training is going wrong.

Your 82sec scenario is very apt: It takes much discipline to admit that this may not be the right day for X running, therefore consider Y, or Z. A flexible schedule is the best schedule.

:) I did that, er, Mucusy session with a couple of guys yesterday! I said "6x300m, start at 3000m race pace, keep getting faster". They were completely thrilled with 54-53-51-49-46-43.

Nobby wrote:

CGP:

Actually that's my sarcasm--I'll bet perhaps more people today get injured despite all the advice about NOT running as many miles and all those $120 shoes with so many features. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

You see! I almost saved you a post. 2min late! :)

Nobby wrote:

CGP:

Actually that's my sarcasm--I'll bet perhaps more people today get injured despite all the advice about NOT running as many miles and all those $120 shoes with so many features. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

One fellow who always sticks out back in the 70's is a Bob Deines, 2:23 marathoner who would do 100 - 110 mpw at 8:00/mile or slower.

Lower miles but faster pace works for awhile until a plateau is reached.

Here’s another way to look at the situation; now this is based on fiction so the actual numbers may not completely accurately reflect the real life situation. Number are completely “for the argument sake.”

We have runner A and runner B. They both have 55-seconds 400m speed and would like to run 800 in 2 minutes. And both of them start getting lactic acid when you go 10 seconds beyond their best 400m time (this is kind of bogus…); in other words, they will still be “aerobic” while running the speed 10 seconds slower than their best 400m time (you wish…). And both of them can sprint 100m flat out in 12 seconds. Runner A decided to work on his endurance; while runner B decided to hone his speed (now this ain’t gonna happen because even doing interval training all the time WILL improve your aerobic capacity somewhat…). By the race time, runner A developed his aerobic capacity up so now he won’t start getting lactic acid until he runs faster than 62 seconds (7 seconds slower than his best 400m effort). Runner B improved his 400m time down to 53 seconds and, as a result, now his 100m PR is down to 11.5 seconds; but his aerobic capacity remains the same so he will start producing lactic acid at 63 seconds per 400m (53 + 10). Now in the race both of them run the first lap in 60 seconds; 2 seconds faster for runner A’s threshold and 3 seconds faster than runner B’s threshold. It’s only a slight difference in second but we know physiologically that, with the slight increase in speed, lactic acid production shoots up (as Lydiard explained as “it doubles, squares and cubes”). By the time they both come around the last bend, runner B’s legs are full of lactic acid which creates neuromuscular breakdown and it’s very difficult to contract muscles, he struggles to manage only 17 seconds for the last 100m with “wobbly legs” (anybody who runs 800m knows exactly how THAT feels); whereas runner A, while also getting into oxygen debt, the damage is not as much as runner B, also “because he’s marathon-trained, he does not feel as tired,” he can sprint close to flat-out in the last 100m (as Snell displayed number of times), perhaps 13 seconds.

The question is who’s the least anaerobic coming into the last bend. The question is how much aerobic can you stay during the race; how high is your aerobic level (threshold pace) compared to the speed at which you’re running the entire race. This is why, in the international competition with Kenyans and Ethiopians with very high aerobic capacity, they are not as much anaerobic coming into the last lap that they can sprint flat-out while others, even if their basic speed is actually faster than theirs, barely maintain the speed with “wobbly legs” full of lactic acid. Somebody mentioned Bekele’s speed. Yes, he’s very fast even in 400m (sure as hell quite a lot faster than me!) but there are others who can run flat-out 400m against Bekele faster, in fact quite a bit faster. But if they get too far anaerobic by the time they reach the final lap, all the speed in the world is not going to help them out-sprint Bekele. Now THAT is the basic concept of the Lydiard method. And THAT is the reason why you do all those marathon-conditioning to develop your aerobic capacity as high as possible.

Skuj said: >

Oh, so you DO Lydiard? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (sorry couldn't resist...)

There certaily seems to be the optimum speed and distance for individuals. Even among the twin brothers; Shigeru Soh (2:09:05) was more of a speed type and did his training quicker but not as many miles (or kilometers) while Takeshi Soh (2:08:50) ran longer at slower pace. Incidentally, Shigeru leans toward his right when he runs while Takeshi to his left... What's up with that?

I don't know why previous post didn't show the whole thing; I meant to say:

Skuj said: "many of my timed efforts are on unknown distances"...

So you do Lydiard. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (perhaps I said a couple more "HA"s)

Lurking here, pleasantly, for a day or so reading the many posts with interest as I get ready to jog out in my 1960s-replica minimal shoes. I have to hope that lots of slower miles is a good thing, because that's all I can muster in the early morning. But I've noticed in the last couple of years that when the time comes to do some anaerobic work, I get a good deal of benefit from just running hard on a loop which is, I think, about 1.25mile -- flat, up a hill, flat, rolls abit, then down a hill, slow down for 0.75mile back to the start, repeat. This is early in the morning, so it's dark, and being early I really can't run all THAT fast anyway, so I don't even try to time them. But I certainly get anaerobic (that little hill in the first half takes care of that). Anyway, I took Lydiard's approach to imply that it was adequate to focus on just getting anaerobic, without worrying about how many reps at what pace on the track -- because the only good track is miles away, so it doesn't lend itself to early morning runs.

I hope the story of the bloke who ran a 2:23 or so on lots of 8:00 miles is true, because that's closer to my training.

Good to hear from you Nobby. How are the FiveCircles projects going?

Because if you get to the bell

Feeling like hell

Then you won't do well

And only time will tell

Regarding the Lydiard sell

When all starts to gel

Into a sweet sweet smell

Of success.

That's some kind of Haiku, isn't it? (I'm at the office. It's quiet.)

This morning I did another "measured" effort. Warmup in trails and on grass....then, I was going to do 8k on the lovely track at 90sec per lap. But at 1 lap in 90sec, it didn't feel right. I felt stressed (some community issues), my back was a bit stiff, and my breathing and form were not free and loose. I tried to relax, but happily stopped at 5km instead, in 18:37. I did a good cooldown. Some days 90sec laps are a light tempo, and other days they can be a heavy tempo. There are many factors. So I think freedom of schedules is very important. A 30min 8k today would have been depressing!

I like the story of Coe doing something like 40x200m, but being told to stop at 30x because "the session was going so well". :)

I think ranges in a program is very good. "Today is 10km to 20km" or "5 to 10 x 400m". There is structure, but also decisions based on how you feel etc.

Nobby wrote:

Incidentally, Shigeru leans toward his right when he runs while Takeshi to his left... What's up with that?

Don't know.....all of us have some sort of trait..I lean to the left myself. :)

Bump.

Skuj wrote:

I think ranges in a program is very good. "Today is 10km to 20km" or "5 to 10 x 400m". There is structure, but also decisions based on how you feel etc.

Best not to be a slave to whatever you had planned...

no run for me today. Treatment this AM & exercises 2x per day.

[/quote]

Don't know.....all of us have some sort of trait..I lean to the left myself. :)

Bump.[/quote]

I meant to MY left as well as to THE left. :)

What 1960s replica minimal shoes are you into these days? Is it still the Waffle Trainers?

Nobby wrote:

Here’s another way to look at the situation.....

We have runner A and runner B. ......

Oh Nobby, it only were that simple....

Look, I see your point, but you left out a LOT of other factors that contibute to finishing time in the 800. It's not simply a matter of Runner A improves 100 and 400 time, and runner B improves LASS/AT, therefore runner B wins. Firstly runner C could improve BOTH (his name was Seb Coe, for example). Or runner A could improve 100/400 time a lot, and his LASS/AT a little, and runner B could improve LASS/AT but LOSE speed at 100/400 and thus lose to runner A. Lifting weights/doing plyos/improving explosiveness does more than simply improve 100/400 speed in a vacuum. It's been proven in many many studies and field studies that improving muscular strength/explosiveness improves running ECONOMY and EFFICIENCY. And doing some intense lactic acid producing type workouts WILL prepare one to deal with with LA when it really hits that last 200 of the 800 race.

It doesn't have to be mileage OR speed of course, and I know darn well (before you have to restate it) that Lydiard was NOT all about endurance without any speed.

I just think your example was extremely simplisitic.

Oh, and by the way, who's LASS/AT is higher/better, Dathan Ritzenhein's or Borzakovsky's??? Of course Borza's........Do I NEED to tell you stomps who in an 800?? Even in a 1000, and possibly 1500 Borza stomps Ritz. I guess at a certain point speed matters, huh??

Who is this Ritz fellow?