Kipchoge dominance is simply too good to be true

As a runner, it's really simple to see. Forget about the times for a moment - look closely at Kipchoge's appearance over the finish line. It's like he's just finished a 200m heat; it's just like Lance Armstrong motoring up a mountain stage.

Before EPO marathon runners used to literally collapse at the finish. Since the emergence of EPO usage by distance athletes in the early 1990s, Kipchoge and others finish in a way that is just not physically possible after running that speed over that distance. It's just ridiculous!

FRANK SHORTER WINNING 1972 OLYMPIC MARATHON:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THUKgZX9pw8

STEVE JONES WORLD RECORD 1984 (TOTALLY SPENT ROB DE CASTELLA 2ND):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hen0HM49Buc

IT'S OBVIOUS SOMETHING IS GOING ON BY THE TIME THE RECORD IS BROKEN BY RENALDO DA COSTA WHEN HE SUMERSAULTS AT THE FINISH LINE IN 1998:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqraW1LcrXE

HAILE GEBRSELASSIE RESTORES SOME RESPECT IN 2007:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Yk1xeSLRk

ELIUD KIPCHOGE WORLD RECORD 2018:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-17/eliud-kipchoge-smashes-world-record-in-berlin-marathon-win/10254414

More oxygen = less acidosis = less chemical respiratory drive = more relaxed breathing

Basic exercise physiology

Coevett wrote:

.... Whereas in the West, your ability to lead a normal life or earn any kind of living will be effectively over if you get exposed as a doper.

I am not sure I would agree. Many notorious dopers have managed to rehabilitate themselves to varying degrees.

A British example would be David Jenkins, the 400M runner. He has admitted to using steroids for most of his career including when he won the silver medal at the 1972 Olympics. After retirement he became involved in drug trafficking in the 1980s and it is estimated that at one time he was responsible for up to 70% of the steroids trafficked in the United States. He was ultimately caught and sentenced to seven years in jail. After release he founded NEXT Proteins, a supplement company, which, through its various brands, has a significant share of the sports supplement market. He is now very wealthy.

Barry Bonds, the baseball player who set numerous records while on steroids and was sentenced to 30 days of house arrest, two years of probation and 250 hours of community service, for an obstruction of justice conviction is now back in the baseball world. In 2017, Bonds officially rejoined the Giants organization as a special advisor to the CEO and in 2017 Bonds was added to the Giants Wall of Fame. In 2018, the San Francisco Giants announced their intentions to retire his number 25 jersey. He still hasn't been elected to the hall of fame but his name but the percentage that vote for him to be inducted has steadily increased over the years.

And everybody's favourite, Lance Armstrong, is slowly working back into public favour. Since 2016 he has been building a media and event organizing company that is starting to attract corporate interest. His company, called WEDU, hosts two podcasts — The Move and The Forward — puts on bike races in Texas and Colorado, sells merchandise through an online store, and offers a $60 subscription service. The Move podcast, which provides analysis of stages of the Tour de France and other cycling races. In 2017 it was ranked in the top 10 in the sports and recreation category on Apple’s iTunes. During the 2017 Tour de France it averaged 80,000 listeners a day and accumulated more than 5 million downloads, according to WEDU. Armstrong estimated that between advertising, merchandise and subscription sales, the podcast would bring in between $700,000 and $1 million over the course of the 2018 Tour de France.

Raddison wrote:

I am not sure I would agree. Many notorious dopers have managed to rehabilitate themselves to varying degrees.

+1

King Carl, Tyson Gay as the ex poster child of 'Project Believe' (that was quite hilarious), and of course Dieter Baumann, still the fastest whitey over 5000 m, still consistently commenting on various marathons in public TV in Germany.

Plus many of the doping cyclists (minus Ullrich who seems to still be a drug addict), e.g. Basso, Riis, etc.

After incurring a doping violation, Maria Sharapova is back playing tennis as though nothing happened. There are numerous others - lesser names - like her. They "do their time" and then are promptly forgiven. The subject isn't raised again.

Armstronglivs wrote:

The argument for defending Kipchoge against doping suspicion is little more than that he is simply a brilliant talent and therefore need not dope. This of course is the perfect defence for all successful dopers; the more incredible the performance the more that this is simply attributable to superior talent. Apparently, only inferior talents will dope, even though we see with many of those eventually caught - Armstrong, Jones, Johnson et al - they were streets ahead of their competition. The fundamental flaw that lies behind this thinking is the failure to understand that everybody can benefit from doping, even great talents - as Kipchoge undoubtedly is. Kiptum

has just proven again the smoke and mirrors that is so often behind outstanding performance today. Drugs are the ultimate deception - and as we see here, many are deceived. And willingly.

This is not the argument.

Raddison wrote:

Coevett wrote:

.... Whereas in the West, your ability to lead a normal life or earn any kind of living will be effectively over if you get exposed as a doper.

I am not sure I would agree. Many notorious dopers have managed to rehabilitate themselves to varying degrees.

[gives several examples].....

....

There are many, many more. 3 more that jump to mind:

Look at Frankie Andreu: admitted doper, revealed liar, and he becomes one of the big "voices/experts" on all of the TdF telecasts. All is forgiven.

Everyone still seems to love "Big" George Hincapie. He is hardly being blackballed from society for being a HUGE PED user-

(not a mention of his doping offenses)

Yes, sounds like he is unable to earn "any kind of living." lol

Example 3: A-Rod :

Poor A-Rod, his "ability to lead a normal life or earn any kind of living (is)... effectively over" ! Yeah, right. (oh, and he is nailing J-Lo too. Poor guy, his life is in tatters!)

Does Coevett EVER say anything on doping that isn't just absurdly and 100% wrong? Not that I've seen.

Is he running Berlin this year ?

jiaaf wrote:

Wow are you stupid. Kipchoge ran 12:46 15 years ago. Please educate yourself.

Sigh. Read my post again, Clem.

Hint: It doesn't say 4:26 is his current tempo pace.

You know, I kind of feel sorry for the youg'uns nowadays. They like to say "awesome" a lot, but their deep-seated cynicism has left them incapable of actually experiencing awe.

Maybe it's because they weren't around when Bob Beamon jumped almost two feet further than anyone had before. Or when David Moorcroft pummeled Henry Rono's already formidable 5,000 record by almost 6 seconds. Or when Carl Lewis jumped 29 feet three times in one meet -- and lost.

Or maybe they're just scared of being fooled, again.

Whatever the reason, it has to make you wonder why they even care anymore.

oliverbrown wrote:

I have been following both the track n road circus closely for almost 2 decades and from what I can recall on top of my head, Eliud kinda disappeared from the scene when he left the track scene. I have always been suspicious to this gap in time. When he re-appeared again he seemed quite like a beast.

When did he disappear?

2012

4x 3000m

1x 2 mile

3x 5000m

1x 5km

2x 10000m

2x half marathon

1x cross country race

2013

3x half marathon

2x marathon

2014

1x 10km

1x half marathon

2x marathons

2015

1x half marathon

2x marathon

2016

1x half marathon

2x marathon

2017

2x marathon

2018

2x marathon

Runningart2004 wrote:

Answer me this: I will give you a million dollars a year for the next 5 yrs. All you have to do is take this assortment of drugs that won’t kill you. Would you do it? You would. Everyone would. It’s about providing for your family for life. That’s more important than records or fame.

I wouldn't because I have a sense of shame.

Answer me this: I will give you a million dollars a year for the next 5 years. All you have to do is a kill a man that I want dead. He's not a bad man, but I just need him dead. You won't get caught. Would you do it? You would. Everyone would. It's about providing for your family for life. That's more important than morals and ethics.

Is it? Killing an innocent man is much worse than fraud, but if your ethics are so flexible, where do you draw the line? I draw it at deception and fraud.

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

Cheaters are like a mutating virus - once a new test or method is developed, the coaches or doping doctors find another substance or method to circumvent the anti-doping strategy.

Why are so many of best women's results from decades ago?

Taro wrote:

You know, I kind of feel sorry for the youg'uns nowadays. They like to say "awesome" a lot, but their deep-seated cynicism has left them incapable of actually experiencing awe.

Maybe it's because they weren't around when Bob Beamon jumped almost two feet further than anyone had before. Or when David Moorcroft pummeled Henry Rono's already formidable 5,000 record by almost 6 seconds. Or when Carl Lewis jumped 29 feet three times in one meet -- and lost.

Or maybe they're just scared of being fooled, again.

Whatever the reason, it has to make you wonder why they even care anymore.

Henry Rono was probably the last clean record holder from 3000m to 10000m and steeplechase. The clean limit is probably 1:42 for 800, 3:28 for 1500, 3:45 for the mile, 7:30 for 3000, 13:00 for 5000, 27:00 for 10000m and 2:06 for the marathon. Just see what PEDs did to Cathal Lombard. A nobody, skyrocket to the best Irish runner in just two-three years. Took three minutes off his 10000m PB in two years. Henry Rono on the rocket fuel of the 90s/today, would've ran at least 40 seconds fast in the 5000 and a minute faster in the 10000.

Just look at his progression:

2002, 10000 PB of 30:35.96 to 27:33.53 in 2004. And his 5000 PB, 14:27.35 in 2000 to 13:19.22 in 2003.

The "he doesn't look tired enough" argument for doping has to be the weakest of the bunch. But just to entertain you, here's Bikila looking fresh as a daisy after his Olympic win in 1964:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmA3BUfZF-I

I’m making a much broader point here.

People often band together to form institutions which ostensibly have a goal of solving some “problem” or doing some public good.

Many, many times, and I can’t emphasize enough how frequently this happens, the “problem” that these people creating the institutions are targeting, isn’t necessarily a real problem; it is just a means by which they can control others and seize power. You’ve been convinced by others that doping is a problem, and this problem justifies the creation of institutions that hopefully you could predict, if you give the past any credence, will be intolerably corrupt and unjust. This is why anyone should be weary when they hear anyone mention a public injustice that needs to be fixed with an institutional apparatus—sure, there are legitimate cases where this may be a legitimate solution—but often it is not and people acquiesce anyway, allowing nefarious individuals to exert undue influence over others’ lives.

Notice how the drug war is doing in the U.S.? If you haven’t already, consider: a) the drug war and seeing drug users as dangerous criminals was a narrative conjured up by a bunch of power-hungry individuals looking to control others or b) while paved with good intentions, somewhere along the line the drug war went very wrong, and the agencies perpetrating it are undeniably ethically more untenable than the so-called “criminals” themselves. If these scenarios haven’t occurred to you, then perhaps you should look at the preponderance of evidence as to lives ruined, lost, and irreversibly harmed by this horrible crusade, and reconsider your perspective.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

Cheaters are like a mutating virus - once a new test or method is developed, the coaches or doping doctors find another substance or method to circumvent the anti-doping strategy.

Why are so many of best women's results from decades ago?

Certainly not in the marathon; and the list doesn't include the doped times of Jeptoo, Shobukhova, Duliba, etc. ?

We'll never know how much Cathal Lombard would have improved without EPO.

Billy Mills split halfway in the Olympic 10000m final one second slower than his lifetime best 5000m. If he did that in 2004 instead of 1964, you would be convinced that he cheated.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Why are so many of best women's results from decades ago?

a) Because one had to cut back on testo around 1990 (but then EPO came);

b) because one had to cut back on EPO around 2005;

c) because one had to cut back on blood transfusions around 2009.

"cut back on", not: stop using. E.g. we know that one can still use 200 mL transfusions, instead of going full throttle 2x 500 mL. Unless of cause, you are not part of the ABP.

But that is a good point: many of the best women's results are from the dirty roid era of the 80s, especially on shorter distances, and many of the best women's results on longer distances are from 93 to 2008 during the EPO/full throttle blood transfusion era. Goes to show how dirty the sport at the top is.

And now? Since a few years, we start seeing the women threatening or even breaking the old records.

WR history:

800: 83 record still valid - 36 years and counting

1500: 93 record broken in 2016 - 23 years

5000: 2008 record still valid - just before the ABP

10000: 93 record broken in 2016 - 23 years

Marathon: 2003 record still valid - before reliable EPO test + before ABP

(female only: 2005 record broken in 2017) - 12 years

Quite a gap across these distances from 2008 - 2016...

So... new drugs on the market? Or have training and technology improved so much that the ladies can finally beat the old drug cheats' times?