loudoun valley has 11 boys out of 24 in the state 3200 championship

Of course, there is a range of times under the same program, because no one denies talent as such. But the whole curve is raised markedly by coaches and programs like this, such that they have many people running 15s and 16s and typical programs like my high school programs will have maybe one or two people running 17s and the rest 18 to 21, except for the rare super talent who runs the mile 25-35 seconds faster than anyone. When you have a program like Loudoun Valley or the Woodlands or York or Saratoga or FM or Great Oak, you find often a dozen people running 9:20 or better, where there is no different in the area gene pool but only in how many people you can turn out, how you can motivate them, and how intelligently training is structured. Among the different results you get within a program, you also cannot say that they are all simply due to training. The oldest of the three Hunter children, for instance, got typical results from conventional training, a sub 5 mile but not by much--that is (or was in the bad days of the late 1980s and 1990s) pretty typical and better than quite a few. 3:57-58 and 7:59 are not typical anywhere, but 4:17/9:07 or something for the third child are outstanding results that you will find fairly commonly within the nation's best programs, because the general level for everyone is raised markedly and only the truly exceptional will take that training and get sub 4 out of it. Kenyan running shows very clearly that if you have the right training circumstances and conditions, with large numbers of highly motivated runners, that you will get very large numbers of top athletes running similar times. Some will get injured through the hard work and they will be replaced by others because of the numbers of athletes. A few will go well beyond everyone, for whatever reason.

The same is true in Japan.

old, old VHSL participant wrote:

Alaska (pop 752,000) has four high school divisions.

Idaho (pop 1.7 mil) has five

Arkansas (pop. 3 mil) has seven

Though I very much liked VA better at 3 divisions than 6, I am not sure that there is a "right" number.

Last year the smallest divsion in VA had a 3200 meter runner who ran 9:08 (outdoor). Some years are more competitive than others. I would guess that very few small schools sponsor indoor.

In any case, whatever the structure or number of divisions, the kids can only line up against whatever competition is there.

DistanceRunner68 wrote:

6 Divisions in a state like VA is uncalled for..

Very fair

VA High School Coach is right wrote:

In the 70's in Illinois, the fifth man on my team was a 9:17 two miler. Heck, I had to hustle to be on the state meet team to be our #2 runner - I was a 4:10 high school miler. It would have been much better to have the Virginia system - qualifying early would have made for much better season planning.

dang bro what HS did you go to? York?

Agreed. wrote:

DistanceRunner68 wrote:

What part of PA are you in? The AAA 3200 @ Wpial is going to be even faster this year. But to your point, there is no way a 9:52 should be contending for a state title, let alone winning one.. heck there is almost always one or two frosh that break 9:50 in the Wpial. 6 Divisions in a state like VA is uncalled for..

D10, but if I recall who you are correctly, I race you (and District 7) a lot. I’m not trying to give away who I am too easily, but I was in the 3k at the same meet as you two weeks ago.

No worries, you gave me plenty to figure it out. You had yourself a pretty good run there! Nice PR if I'm correct? Next time we are at the same meet, give me a shout. Always nice to met new guys from around the state.

Funny you ask. We soundly beat York and actually the best competition was from Rockford, which didn’t compete in athletics because of financial problems (sad). My entire family went to York, but my mother insisted on moving to my aunt’s town because of the quality of the schools - a very good thing for me. I am really pro participation for high school kids - brings great memories. And I get a kick out of attending the VA state XC meet. Met a wonderful family of a 2A runner which didn’t have Internet access. The best part of the sport.?

Va high school cosch is right wrote:

Funny you ask. We soundly beat York and actually the best competition was from Rockford, which didn’t compete in athletics because of financial problems (sad). My entire family went to York, but my mother insisted on moving to my aunt’s town because of the quality of the schools - a very good thing for me. I am really pro participation for high school kids - brings great memories. And I get a kick out of attending the VA state XC meet. Met a wonderful family of a 2A runner which didn’t have Internet access. The best part of the sport.?

Deerfield HS?

impressive wrote:

I am very impressed that you come on here and are so upfront and honest with your program. Thank you. Your coaching ability is admired and your attitude is very appreciated. My question is directed towards your girls. Does your training differ for females vs. males? I notice that your girls team isn't at the "elite" level that your boys team has achieved. Do you feel this is due to desire or that they don't seem to thrive off of this type of training quite as much as the male athlete.

We are still trying to figure this out. I think there are multiple factors that have limited the success of our girls' distance runners. Having said that, our girls have come a long way since we took over at Valley. They have just taken longer to get there, and are still progressing as a group. We also don't have as much depth on our girls team, and our girls team is smaller than our boys team. Before Drew's freshman year (2012), in 2011, the girls top 7 had times ranging from 20:23 to 23:29 for 5K (no fast courses that year, though). Each year, the team got stronger, if you look at the top 7 times for the season, and we have had at least one girl every year since 2014 in the 17s or 18s for 5K (17:14 to 18:40 from 2014-2018). This year, our girls were state champs in cross for the first time in school history (57 years, though I doubt XC was a girls' sport in the 60s). Most girls were in the 18s or 19s this year.

Generally, our girls run less than our boys, as far as minutes per week. This year, I don't have any who are running 7 days a week, for various reasons. Our girls tend to get injured more easily, are sick more often, have more health/injury issues overall. Their training is quite similar to the boys, but scaled down a little bit. Most of my girls are not middle distance oriented runners- their speed is inferior to their endurance, relatively speaking, yet they aren't running enough (yet) to maximize their ability as distance runners, in my opinion. But if they can't handle more mileage and stay healthy, that's how it is. I do have a couple of girls who lean towards the middle distances, but all are injury prone. On the other hand, most (not all) of my top boy runners have decent speed relative to their also strong endurance and can run state qualifying 800 times, whereas out of my 1600/3200 girls, MAYBE one or two could qualify for state in the 800. I don't think most of my girls can handle as much faster work as the boys can- it seems to cause more fatigue and soreness. That is also true of my boys who are not terribly speedy, so I differentiate the training for those kids when I need to. This season, I am going to try some different things with some of the girls to see if we can bump to a higher level. I have a couple girls I think who can be sub 11 this year for 3200 and possibly sub 5 mins for 1600. And a couple who can probably be 11 teens. But we have to stay healthy. Better to be undertrained and able to stay consistently training, than to push it too hard and miss training.

Other factors: my boys hang out together more than my girls do in their free time, they run together on Sundays, and they have more extroverted personalities, at least some of them, and they make an effort to get together and include the quiet ones. They give each other a lot of crap, but all in good fun. There is also a sort of "group confidence" that permeates the air and I think that is huge. Some of them are students of the sport and are very aware of what's going on in the world of running at the college and pro levels. My girls are a little more reserved as a group, and while they all seem to get along very well, they don't spend a lot of time together outside of practice. They do not have the same 'group confidence' that the boys team has. They are more inclined to run on their own separately if for some reason we don't have a practice instead of getting together as a group (lot of bad weather cancellations this year which meant quite a few practices on their own). Granted, as a group, they are younger than the boys so they don't have quite as much ability to get together since they don't all drive. The culture overall is quite good on the girls' team- I have had many kids who came from other sports say how much nicer and inclusive our girls are than they were on their other sports' teams, and the fact that we attract girls who really aren't runners or even athletes, yet they love being on the team, speaks volumes. I would say my top girls are quite driven to succeed in running, and are very focused and generally confident in their ability, but not all of my girls share those characteristics. Trying to get there...

Girls in general don't have linear improvement thru high school, at least in my experience, whereas most boys do. I would really like to have some discussions with coaches of powerhouse girls' programs to see what they do differently. Fortunately I am friends with some of these coaches and I just need to make the time to have the conversation! I know many coaches I have talked with who coach both boys and girls have a very different dynamic between the teams, and often it is the girls' team that is the more focused and driven. Probably a little different at every school.

ThatEpicMania wrote:

You've messed up your order here. Drew is the oldest Hunter boy, then a brother who is one year his junior, then the brother who is currently a senior at Valley. And Drew never competed in VHSL indoor track because it was sanctioned in Loudoun County until after he graduated, not because he was so much better than everyone else in the state (though he was, obviously, elite).

Definitely you are correct on all counts. Sorry about that. Just late night brain fog or something on my part. I'd speculated wrongly about why Drew didn't run VA indoor track his senior year only because I'd errantly compared his MileSplit results to another from the school who did run indoor track...just not that year.

The times I listed, however, matched to the boy. It's just that, as you pointed out, the order should be Drew (2016 graduate)--next brother (2017 graduate)--current HS senior brother. So this is the correct array of times, showing that GENES CAN ONLY GO SO FAR TO EXPLAIN RESULTS. Despite the same coaches, and having come from the same gene pool, the three boys show a range of talent that differs. Of course, there are other factors involved, too...like, for the two following Drew, the emotional baggage of following in his massive footsteps! And physiological factors and the negative effects resulting from reading drek on the LetsRun message board.

Genes ruler, no kidding these three brothers weren't identical male triplets with identical functioning organs and brains and limbs, so their genes are obviously different in some ways! That doesn't diminish the value of comparing their times at the same points in their senior years. Same source of genes (parents), same coaches, so take it for what it's worth and nuthin' more. You're the type of spin doctor, anyway, who will have a counter argument for anything. We're ALL knuckleheads, you knucklehead.

Below is the relative comparison between each boy's best , in the correct order this time, and still only through Feb 28 of his senior year at LVHS, from Drew to the brother who graduated one year later to the youngest, currently a senior (all stats from MileSplit). IF I've misread any MileSplit stats, and assuming all stats chosen are correct**, then still the relative comparisons wouldn't change:

**I saw that one stat, not a best time, was incorrect -- MileSplit lists identical 3200 and 2-Mile times (9:14.55) for the youngest Hunter boy on the the same date and at the same invitational this winter. I really don't think so! The race was a 2-Mile, where he finished second to a teammate. If this Hunter boy really ran identical 3200 and 2-Mile (approximately 3219 meters) times in the same race, then WOW, his final 19ish meters was run in a world record 0.00 seconds. Great GENES! Or great COACHING! Or great TAILWIND...oh, it was indoors.

5000m XC: 14:20.80>>>17:03.40>>>15:14.40

800m: 1:52.98 (Outdoor)>>>2:15.89 (Outdoor)>>>1:56.10 (Outdoor)

1000m: 2:28.95 (Indoor)>>>--none-->>>2:32.48 (Indoor)

1600m: 4:03.88 (Outdoor)>>>4:59.60 (Outdoor)>>>4:17.15 (Outdoor)

Mile: 3:57.81 (Indoor)>>>--none-->>>4:16.67 (Indoor)

3200m: 8:59.67 (Indoor)>>>10:57.55 (Outdoor)>>>9:07.24 (Outdoor)

2 Mile: 8:42.51 (Indoor)>>>--none-->>>9:14.55 (Indoor)

Thanks so much for your detailed response. I Was curious what your thoughts were regarding the training differences of boys and girls. Your training ideas/plans seem to be very effective and well thought out. I’ve often wondered if, generally speaking, training for girls is slightly different than for boys. What your saying about your girls team makes a lot of sense. If the girls can’t handle mileage or intensity, without getting hurt, then their development will be negatively effected. Thanks again

Coach Hunter, thank you so much for taking the time to post detailed explanations and ruminations about your team—particularly after being trolled in this very thread. It’s fascinating to read about the workings of the team and the success you’ve had. I ran in the area just as your team was starting to rise, and it’s been fun to see the improvement, year by year!

I don't think people really understand Loudoun County when they get on all of these transfers. People move in and out of this county constantly. One of our top five this year was a transfer and the team that beat us had their number one as a transfer, it happens all the time. It goes both ways to, we have a family with multiple kids who are talented but they are military so most will not spend a full four years with us.

Transfers. Trans fat. Transgenders. Transportation. Training. Trailing.

The first subject is a gift to the trollers of LetsRun, no matter what the Hunters and their supporters write.

The second relates to diet, which is so very important to young (and old) runners.

The third is a hot topic in the running/track community, though not currently relating to Loudoun Valley High XC and track teams (that I know of).

The fourth is a wonderful way for young kids to attain fitness and to expand their horizons in so many ways, beyond Northern VA, when using their feet between Point A and Point B, and when coached by the Hunters.

The fifth, again when influenced by Marc and Joan Hunter, leads to state championships, and sometimes national championships (LVHS at NXN the last two years, and son Drew, recent USATF indoor 2 mile national champ)

In recent times, the sixth is a word which has become far less prevalent than in the pre-Hunter days for LVHS teams and some of its runners .

I'll take a wild guess that MANY, MANY, MANY LetsRun readers are rooting for the Hunters to continue imparting their wisdom to young minds.

What the heck, two more words: Track and Troll. The first is a sport everyone reading this except Johnny Manzeil's wife can relate to. The second is what sometimes makes reading LetsRun posts another "TR" word: trying.

OK, trollers, get to work, as if you need prodding.

DistanceRunner68 wrote:

Agreed. wrote:

D10, but if I recall who you are correctly, I race you (and District 7) a lot. I’m not trying to give away who I am too easily, but I was in the 3k at the same meet as you two weeks ago.

No worries, you gave me plenty to figure it out. You had yourself a pretty good run there! Nice PR if I'm correct? Next time we are at the same meet, give me a shout. Always nice to met new guys from around the state.

It was definitely a nice PR for me. Our invite schedule in outdoor is odd this year, but if I find out we are at the same meet, I’ll try to stop by.

Yelmouth wrote:

Coach Hunter, thank you so much for taking the time to post detailed explanations and ruminations about your team—particularly after being trolled in this very thread.

+1

Thanks Coach Hunter for your posts. And again, sorry for stirring up trolling towards your team. Best of luck at NBIN next weekend.

I have never met coach Hunter, but have listened to interviews with her and read training thoughts from her. The Hunters seem to be exceptional coaches who are very knowledgeable, care about the kids, and are "students of the sport" themselves. It's refreshing to come on Lets Run and see a knowledgeable, well known coach, give their true thoughts. It's ashame other top level coaches don't do this. Or maybe they did, and just got bashed by some of the negative people on here. I really hope more coaches, like the Hunters, would lend their advice. They have a wealth of knowledge that could really help other coaches and runners.

Fits me like a "T" wrote:

Transfers. Trans fat. Transgenders. Transportation. Training. Trailing.

The first subject is a gift to the trollers of LetsRun, no matter what the Hunters and their supporters write.

The second relates to diet, which is so very important to young (and old) runners.

?

That last poster: sir, this is an arbys

?

I was surprised to see this thread has lasted this long, so I thought I'd point something out, seeing as you're still here.

You DO recruit. You posted a very specific definition of 'recruiting' which includes contacting parents, etc, etc, but if you use a broader generic definition, you absolutely do. Another parent points out that you actively recruit from one of (or perhaps more than one of) the middle schools in the district that feed Valley. Not saying it's wrong, but my suspicion is that there could even be contact with parents. Maybe not. And not necessarily bad anyway.

Where you very actively and openly recruit is at Valley itself. At my high school the track coach(es) did not recruit. What do I mean by that? They only had contact with kids who showed up at the table set up in the gym on sports sign-up day (or whatever it was called). And that was after the Spring semester started. Probably the day before the official State-sanctioned season began, or perhaps a few days later. Ditto XC. Fall semester had begun, there's a day on which one could sign up, you walk over there and introduce yourself, etc. Prior to that (June, July, even August), coaches had no contact with anybody, least of all parents.

What does all this mean? Who cares? Well, that describes a complete lack of recruiting. Is this good, bad, or indifferent? Who's to say? You DO, however, heavily recruit and pressure kids (parent too?) to participate in your program. My HS track coach never approached me. We never met. Not sure what his name was. Since I was the best distance runner in the school district (may STILL have the school record at 10k - we cared about that kind of thing) that couldn't have happened at Valley. You would have been so far up in my face - and my parents would have at least been aware of you, if you were calling or coming to our house in June or July. That IS recruiting. I certainly wouldn't have run for my school's team even if approached, and in fact one of my main training partners actually approached the coached but was turned down, but the fact still remains: no school official or employee contacted my parents or me. Definitely not possible at Valley.

Not saying you should do anything differently. Are there kids who would be doing much better on their own as opposed to being 'on the team'. Perhaps. I flourished. Went under 3 in the 'thon my first year of high school. I just don't see any kid in your district even considering such a course of action if heavy-handed pressure and shaming leads on to believe that if you run, you MUST run for the glory of the school.

All that having been said, keep doing what you're doing. If it ain't broke..... I just feel that someon needs to call a spade a spade. Recruit on!

You get an A+ in the subjects of passive aggressiveness and being pathetic!

BTW - Congrats on having your high school 10k record!