Sub 2h30 Fall Marathon

SoFlo, congrats on your 5k, great stuff. Fastest mile in the end is a great sign. Your 3x3 miles workout sounds familiar. I tried the 3x5k a few weeks ago, first rep went grear in 16.43 but legs were too tired after long run, and i struggled to run 17.25 for the other two, it was rough. And i jogged for 5 and not 3 min in between. Stick with your 5k!

Smoove, looking forward to hear about your 1h14 / 1h15 HM jog!!

As for me, crazy week of work in China and running on the treadmill; even managed to do a double, but not fancing and just trying to log as many as i can. Am planning something big for Sunday, lets see if it works it out.

I still have two weeks of quality to do in Europe after I am back next Thursday, so just need to make it through these days here once again.

@mike, sorry I didn't see this for a week but the diet is mainly for race weight (although I am eating what I believe to be optimal nutrition for running, so both apply). I wasn't so concerned about weight until I opted to make Chicago a goal race, that accelerated the whole season.

I'm pretty well set on everything between now and Chicago. on Sunday I had a monster long run closing with 4 miles ~2:31, then on Tuesday I had a 4 mile tempo @ 5:21. This Saturday I'm racing a half marathon, although the forecast is 75+73 so I'm going to be racing for placement rather than time. The following Saturday I've got a 5K, but I'll do 2x2 mile T ahead of the race, then on Tuesday 9/25 8E + 4x2T , then a real 5K race going for a PR on 9/29, 3 miles at T on 10/2, race on 10/7.

Weekly mileage will be 105 (this week), 120 (next), 90, then a very steep taper on the final week.

4 miles @ 5:31*, although 2:31 would be pretty cool

Hope everyone's week went well. I ran a half this morning as a tune up for Chicago and I'm willing to take some criticism of my thought process here.

A local weather station recorded 73+70 at the start of the half and 77+70 at the finish, however the course circled a lake at dawn so I think the local humidity/dew point was higher, it was pretty rough. The competition didn't show up so it was a solo TT for first (seriously - 2nd place $400 was 1:18, 5th place $100 was 1:21).

My A goal for Chicago is roughly 2:27 which according to Daniels is about 1:10 low. I used MPR's dew point + temp adjustment to come up with a 4% adjustment and a goal of 5:34/mi (1:12:52). I ended up running 1:13:01. It was a race effort but a solo TT from the gun with humidity and hills. I stayed pretty comfortable, relaxing into 5:35 pace through mile 9, then had to put some effort into maintaining that pace 10-12, and then lost the pace up a large hill on the last mile (but I largely made that time back in the final kick). I had hoped I would have closed faster (5:15-5:20) after running ~GMP for 10, but that didn't happen.

The points in favor of my time ~equating to 2:27 are:

1. 105 mile week - not a real taper, but my only workout was 5E + 4T (5:21) + 2E on Tuesday.

2. Harder course than Chicago.

3. Solo effort.

Points against:

1. I've been running in humidity all summer, so I'm as adapted as I'll ever be; although I don't feel like I've ever really adapted.

2. Basically marathon pace for a half, more than 2 minutes slower than an equivalent half, weather be damned.

Andy, not a great time, but a very good effort. I wouldn't be discouraged by that performance at all.

Weather is obviously the biggest issue - adaptation or no adaptation. Your body isn't designed to run in that crap.

But the bigger issue is that you've been putting in huge volume and when 100 miles is a taper, you know that your volume is huge. Where were you last week? 140?

Taper will be a big deal.

Competition will be a huge deal.

When I ran 2:30 at Chicago I ran a half this same weekend. I intended to run 1:14:20 (goal marathon pace). I struggled from the middle of the race on and it essentially felt like a full race effort. The guy I recruited to run it with me stayed on goal pace and I just could hang - ran 1:15 mid. Then split 1:14:0x at Chicago and felt aerobically capable of holding it (but I was not capable of holding it musculoskeletally).

The point of that anecdote is that you can't let doubts creep into your head because of a less than perfeft performance at this point in the cycle. You need to look back over the body of your work. I think your body of work suggests that 2:27 is still a very reasonable goal.

20x300??? What are you smoking? Standard marathon workouts for you should be an 8 mile tempo at 5:40-5:50 pace and 10X1000m at threshold pace with 100m jog between.

@Tooth21, The post you're replying to was referring to a workout more than 6 months out from my goal marathon, I can't keep up marathon workouts for that long.

@Smoove, thanks for the perspective. I'll keep trucking! I think I'm panicking because I want more data points leading into the race and I don't have them.

Tooth21 wrote:

20x300??? What are you smoking? Standard marathon workouts for you should be an 8 mile tempo at 5:40-5:50 pace and 10X1000m at threshold pace with 100m jog between.

It`s nothing wrong with 20 x 300 at maxVO2-pace every week, but I prefer 20 x400m. Then one just have to complement that workout with a LT-paced interval of a total 6- 10 miles and a specific long run every other or third week. Functions every time . No exceptions.

You guys ever wonder what would happen if an experienced racer who was in 2:32 mid shape went out and tried to run 2:29 high? Wonder no longer - you're going to find out on October 7th!

Solid week for me, but I continue to see more indicators of 2:32 shape than 2:29.

67 miles total

- 10 miles with first 5 run as a progression, finishing with a 5:33 or so finall mile

- 5k in 16:28

- 20.25 mile final long run - 7th and final runnof the cycle of 20 or more miles

Race and workout barely indicate 2:32 shape, but the temp/dew point for the workout was 91/75 and for the race it was 81/79. Same conditions for my long run this morning (during which I lost almost 9% of my body weight - about 13 pounds in sweat), so I think 2:32 is a pretty good estimate assuming remotely fldecent weather on race day.

Sub 2:30 is only going to happen for me with perfect weather and me having an out of my head kind of race. Still, it is really my last marathon goal, so I intend to go for it assuming decent weather.

Hey all, following along and shooting for sub-2:40 at Chicago. Mileage has been great- 90 average for 12 weeks but it's been a hot & humid summer so the workouts have not been great. I did a solid 22 miler @ 6:30 average (feeling cozy) & I'm still playing around with this week. Some threshold treadmill workouts but I'm worried I haven't done enough longer reps/tempos.

Thinking a mid-week workout but can't decide- k's, 2 miles, steady state 8-10 miles. And then thinking about doing some marathon pace during Sunday's long run? Anyone have any suggestions? Also could hop in a half marathon but it's two weeks out. Is that too close? Weather looks pretty good on Sunday for a change.

During my last buildup, I ran 5 x 1k at 10k pace with 2:00 rest and a 10 mile steady state at this point in the cycle. I would not recommend a half marathon though. That would be a lot to recover from and at this point it I think you should take a more moderate approach and prioritize recovery.

SoFlo - nice 5k! looks like the wheels are definitely, ready to go!

Andy- I wouldn't be too discouraged about the time. I had an MP workout about a month ago where I was planning on 12 at MP, but only managed 4 due to the heat and unbearable humidity. A couple weeks later I caught a nice 65 degree morning and held the pace for 15 miles...brutal conditions like that can certainly mask your fitness.

I had a solid week, 80 miles total which will be my last "high" mileage week of the cycle. Looking forward to the taper!

M: 11 easy

Tu: 10 easy

W: 11 easy

Th: 20 with the middle 14 avg 5:40

Fr: 7 easy

Sa: 10 easy

Su: 11 easy

Anybody excited after watching Berlin? Chicago is coming up quickly. Fortunately CIM isn't...

my last 4 weeks now have been 38, 46, 49, and this week was 55. Just one fartlek (wednesday) unstructured. doubled 3 times and only ran 5 days, so 55 was tough to hit. had 40 miles on the bike too.

next week I will hopefully be 56-59 with one or two bike rides, and hopefully an actual 90min+ long run for once. if I hit 58 and ride 40 miles, that would be equal to basically a 70 mile week which would make me happy.

part of me is thinking that I should forget about a fall/winter marathon and just keep this steady mileage progression going as long as I can, building into my 50 miler training next spring. unlike smoove I'm not willing to go try to run 2:29 with 2:32 fitness, lol.

marathon or not, I do still plan to race a half marathon this fall to hopefully get into the 1:12s even if I'm not that fit. during my boston buildup I ran a solo 73:27 on a course with a TON of turns, which I felt was worth a 72mid or thereabouts. I wasn't even that fit this spring, so hopefully beating that won't be too tough of a goal.

09/10-09/16

Monday: 23 miles @ 6:36 pace (longest run of the cycle. Last real hard long run as well). First 11 miles were used as “recovery” @ 6:59 pace, right into 3x2 miles @ MP with 1 mile in b/w @ 1min slower than MP. 5:43, 5:43, 6:42, 5:44, 5:40, 6:45, 5:43, 5:49 (first 500m of the last 800m were up a steep hill). The last 4 miles were @ 6:46 pace. Good effort, but with no liquids or fuel, I was really dehydrated by the end of it.

Tuesday: 12 miles @ 7:21 pace

Wednesday: 12 miles @ 7:24 pace

Thursday: 11 @ 7:23 pace

Friday: 2-mile w/u, 10x1K @ 10K pace with 1:30. 3:15, 3:16, 3:15, 3:15, 3:15, 3:11, 3:10, 3:10, 3:07, 3:02. 2-mile c/d. Total: 11 miles

Saturday: 10.47 miles @ 7:26 (ran with some guys from my running store).

Sunday: 16 miles @ 6:38 pace. 1st 8 miles @ 7:08, miles 9-13 @ MP – 5:42, 5:41, 5:42, 5:42, 5:40, miles 14-16 @ 6:50 pace. 90 degrees at the start of the run with a feels like temp. of 100 degrees. Humidity 61% and due point @ 74 degrees.

Total: ~95.47 miles

I felt good on the 1K workout and after running 3:11, I decided I’d get after it a bit on the last 2. I ran the same workout on 11/08/2017 right before I ran 32:19 on 11/19/2017. I’d say the splits were slightly better this time around (11/08/2017 - 3:14, 3:15, 3:15, 3:15, 3:15, 3:14, 3:10, 3:09, 3:10, 3:08).

Tapering question: how much mileage due to guys cut 3 weeks before the marathon. I’ve read typically 10-15% per week. This has been my mileage for the last 15 weeks: 43, 54, 65, 72, 80, 84, 83, 90, 93, 100, 85, 91, 93, 75, 96. The last 8 weeks, I’ve average ~90 mpw. So, with the above cutdown in mind, I’m thinking 76mpw for this week with a HM @ MP this Sunday, 65mpw next week, and 55mpw race week. What do you guys think? Too much of a decrease or not enough?

Remaining workouts

09/19 - 3x2miles @ HMP w/2mins rest

09/23 - HM @ ~MP

09/27 – Need a decent workout here. Maybe 4xmile @ HMP w/1min rest, 6 miles easy, 2-mile @ HMP. Any suggestions here? I see Smoove has 3x3mile set up the day before, but after attempting that workout like 2-3 this cycle and failing, I’m not interested in repeating.

09/29 – 15-16 mile long run with the last 4-5 miles @ MP

10/02 - 4 x 1200 @ HMP w/1:00 rest (courtesy of Smoove)

Thoughts and advice are always welcomed! Thanks!

@sloflo - nice 5K! And those long runs look great.

@andy - you're really killing it out there, super strong tempo run, and that is great HM time as a solo TT in those conditions. I'm pretty sure 2:27 is in your reach, but don't think it's in the bag. If weather is good I wouldn't bet against you.

@smoove - you definitely need to go for it. better to go for it and blow up than to run smart and hit 2:32, that would be really boring. You'll have a bunch of us youngsters to draft behind anyway.

@reed - a lot can happen in 3 months. It may not be enough to peak but I bet you can get to close to top form. I guess it's up to whether you want to time your race to where you'll be at PR condition? CIM is such a nice race though that it will forgive a lot of faults.

Solid week for me - 108 miles (weekly mileage PR)! I wasn't planning on running that much but had a corporate offsite next to some amazing trails and couldn't resist running there and back and joining a running crew and ended up logging 24 miles over that day. Not terribly smart but luckily I felt great the next day.

Q1: 3/3/2 w/3:00 rest with splits of (16:35, 16:16, 10:40). First rep my legs felt kind of sore and didn't have much pickup but then they warmed up and I was able to close out the workout really fast without feeling like I was pushing it too hard (until maybe the last 400m). I really hate this workout.

Q2: 22 mile easy depletion run. Took in few carbs the day before, skipped breakfast, and just ran an easy effort up some gorgeous trails. I definitely could feel the lack of energy but I didn't feel any bonk so I think I'm in good shape endurance wise.

3 more weeks!!

What shoes are all of you planning on racing in?

I've been training in a really cheap pair of asics and I'm wondering if I should invest in something for the race. Any suggestions?

@marathonNoob - I'm a complete vaporfly convert. I would highly encourage getting a pair, it definitely feels like shoe doping. They are releasing the flyknit version at Chicago expo and I'm lining up early to snag a new pair.

Not a lot of checkins - hope everyone had a great final week of training and no one is having to drop.

Really great week for me, 87 miles and my two best training runs of the cycle. I definitely should have taken it easier this week but running this week and ended up adding on to my two workouts but I just felt really amped and had to rip out more at the end. Hoping that feeling carries forward for two weeks and I didn't leave my race on the road.

Q1: 2w/u, 4X2 miles on the road, 4c/d. Splits (10:38, 10:39, 10:43, 10:47 [~10:40 road equivalent]). This felt easier than previous tempos for some reason (maybe the chocolate waffles doped me up, I usually don't have the luxury of breakfast before training) and I was shocked that 5:20 pace felt "comfortably hard" as opposed to most of my "uncomfortably hard" previous tempos. The workout was supposed to be 3X2 but I felt so great at the end of the set I couldn't hold back and did a last set on a dirt trail which probably would be worth another 10:40.

Q2: 10 easy (6:50), 9@MP (5:29, 5:46, 5:35, 5:29, 5:38, 5:31. 5:32. 5:28, 5:25), 1 easy. Put on my vaporflys and took in caffeine/nutrition/fluids which I've never done for a long run this cycle and boy did I feel the difference. Started out by feel but then realized at mile 1 I was going way too fast so slowed myself down to goal MP but it felt way too easy so I sped back up and it was pretty easy to hold 5:30 pace. I was only going to do 6 miles but I felt so good that I went another loop and had tons left in the tank. I was tempted to do a fourth loop but talked myself out of it. Looking back at HR data and it seems that

@marathonNoob I've got a pair of Nike zoom streak 6s that I really like. In the past I've also had good luck with the Saucony type A as well.

@mikemike solid week! Both of those workouts are killer, you look ready to roll!

This past week I started to bring down the mileage a bit, had a crummy workout and a decent long run.

M: 0

Tu: 7 easy

W: 4 x (2 mile)/ 2 min rest 10:47, 10:52, 11:02, 11:42

Th: 8 easy

Fr: 11 easy

Sa: 17 mile progression, starting at 7:00 easing into mid 6s with the last miles at 6:15, 5:41, 5:35, 5:24, 5:27

Su: 6 easy

63 miles total. Bombed completely on the 4 x 2, not really sure why. Recent workouts/races have indicated that mid-low 5:20s should have been fine, but man did I fall apart. Maybe it was just an off day.

rfmaioral wrote:

Smoove, looking forward to hear about your 1h14 / 1h15 HM jog!!

More of a 1:17 slog. It was 81 degrees at the start, then the sun rose. It didn't get hotter, but the sun was not much fun and didn't make the humidity much better. The plan going in was to adjust pace to 5:50 or so and hold that for as long as I could. I averaged that through about 10 miles, then slowed down to 6:06 pace to finish at 1:17:45.

Between the heat and the fact that I ran the last 5.5 miles alone due to a friend dealing with some stomach issues at that point, I am not worried that the last 5k hurt so much despite being so slow, but if we are being honest, my best guess is that I am in 2:32-2:33 shape. Should make for an interesting day in Chicago.

I have a sock question @mikemike and other VF4% converts (maybe @Smoove in particular as well). I've worn my 4%s twice and haven't had good experiences. Both races were in very high humidity and I wore my standard Injinji lightweight socks (55 Polyester, 40 Nylon, 5 Lycra). Once my feet got wet my socks were slipping around in the heel of the shoe. It makes me feel like I should wear a medium or heavy weight sock for stability, but I've been racing in these particular socks forever with no issues in any flats. It's not a sizing issue; my 4%s are half a size smaller than every other pair of shoes I own. Do you guys have any similar experiences or advice?

My week last week was mixed to good. It's still very humid here, with a dew point of 70-72 every morning. I checked historical weather data because I don't remember September ever being this bad and typically only 15-20% of the days in late September have a dew point over 65. We are getting hosed this year!

My plan for to recover from last Saturday's half, run my last long/easy run on Tuesday, and race a 5K on Saturday. The humidity had me tapping out at 16 miles on Tuesday and the 5K race was cancelled due to flooding so I ran a long hard tempo on the treadmill as my only workout. The other event of note was that my peroneal tendon suddenly hurt on Wednesday after my run so I had to take it easy on Thursday and Friday just to be safe. It ended up being nothing.

M: 11.1 (6:49) + 8.5 treadmill (7:39)

T: 16 (6:59) + 8.6 treadmill (7:33)

W: 11 (6:57)

H: 3.2 (6:56) + 7 (6:57)

F: 7.1 (6:40)

Sa: 21 treadmill (6:18). 8.7 w/u, 10.5 hard, 1.8 c/d. Tempo miles: 5:59, 5:54, 5:46, 5:46, 5:45, 5:38, 5:34, 5:31, 5:24, 5:18, 5:06, 2:25 (0.5)

Su: 10.1 (6:40) - felt great and closed with a 5:38 mile