Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

zxcvzxcvx wrote:

However he got to that point, Aouita with whatever legal and illegal help he received, and I'm sure that he was blood doping, taking steroids, and possibly even taking EPO in one of its trial phases in the mid to late 1980s, was magnificent at his best, with 4 simultaneous world records across 1500m, 2000m, 3000m, and 5000m, being the 2nd man under 3:30, the first under 7:30, and the first under 13. He ended up about 6/10 of a second outside of Cram's mile wr.

If anyone in the 80's would be jumping on EPO from the research clinics it would likely have been Aouita.

If Aouita was doing all this with pharmaceutical help, you have to consider him something of a fluke of timing. His 'range' was nothing more than the fact he was blood doping and/or EPOing in an era when it was not yet common. His 3000/5000m times would barely be competitive in the next decade when all the African elite had their hands on EPO. Even his 1500/Mile times need to be seen in that light. In the 90's there was at least some better testing for roids and HGH (if I'm not mistaken). That means that the likes of Morcelli and El G really had even less to work with than Aouita, and yet ran 2 or 3 seconds faster over 1500.

He wasn't even the 'king of the cheats'. He was just the 'first of the cheats'.

Ovett probably represented the maximum natural range of any athlete in history (with the stress on natural), although we don't really know exactly what that was/is because Ovett didn't chase the clock until 79 and only ran the odd 5000m etc for fun or training until he was well past his best. His beat down on Rono in the Two Miles in 78 gives an indication.

After 1987, when Aouita was still allegedly only 28, he ran under 3:32 only once, never broke 3:50 for the Mile, and didn't run under 13:05 for the 5000m (and under 13:23 only once).

That 1:43.98 really did cost him.

Coevett wrote:

After 1987, when Aouita was still allegedly only 28, he ran under 3:32 only once, never broke 3:50 for the Mile, and didn't run under 13:05 for the 5000m (and under 13:23 only once).

That 1:43.98 really did cost him.

Why did Aouita put all his eggs in the 800m basket?

1500m would have seemed more logical for 1988 as Cram wasn't in the best of form.

Geoffrey Robertson wrote:

Coevett wrote:

After 1987, when Aouita was still allegedly only 28, he ran under 3:32 only once, never broke 3:50 for the Mile, and didn't run under 13:05 for the 5000m (and under 13:23 only once).

That 1:43.98 really did cost him.

Why did Aouita put all his eggs in the 800m basket?

1500m would have seemed more logical for 1988 as Cram wasn't in the best of form.

He didn’t. He was attempting the 800 and 1500m double in Seoul, but further damage to an injury picked up just prior to the 800m heats, forced him to pull out of the 1500m.

His 800pb was actually 1:43.86, and he had already beaten Cruz and some of the other best 2 lap runners prior to the Olympics. In fact he was world ranked no 1 in 88.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

From Wiki: "Synthetic EPO was first successfully used to correct anemia in 1987.[26] In 1985, Lin et al isolated the human erythropoietin gene from a genomic phage library and used it to produce EPO.[27] In 1989, the US Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone Epogen for use in certain anemias.[28]"

In reviewing all available literature on this it's somewhat convoluted as to when athletes first started using rHuEPO vs the documented availability & approval for clinical use of the drug. The drug was approved for use in Europe in early 1988 and the first gen "Epoetin Alfa" was manufactured by Amgen and sold in the U.S. for dialysis patients in 1989.

One report states that rHuEPO was banned in 1987 by the IOC though WADA's own site states it was banned in the "early 90s." The IOC also states there was evidence of use at the 1988 Calgary Winter Games & Seoul Olympic Games. Deaths from the alleged use of rHuEPO with professional cyclists were reported from 1987 through 1991. So it seems, IMO, that 1987 might have been the earliest that athletes could get their hands on rHuEPO.

Geoffrey Robertson wrote:

Coevett wrote:

After 1987, when Aouita was still allegedly only 28, he ran under 3:32 only once, never broke 3:50 for the Mile, and didn't run under 13:05 for the 5000m (and under 13:23 only once).

That 1:43.98 really did cost him.

Why did Aouita put all his eggs in the 800m basket?

1500m would have seemed more logical for 1988 as Cram wasn't in the best of form.

In the interviews which I actually have on tape, he clearly states that his intention is to run the 1500m in Seoul and (if things are going well, this mainly means to run sub 1:44) maybe also the 800m.

He surely never ever wanted to attempt the triple of 800m, 1500m and 5000m (1st: impossible while training for the 800m; 2nd: 1500m and 5000m on the same day). I'm pretty sure that this just directly came from the press, or maybe he was asked by some reporter "And what about the 5000m?". And since he is impulsive, he might have answered like: "Ah, for sure, I can win this too" or something like this.

Coedeppe can't even get some PB correct (and since it's from Aouita, surely he makes him slower). But since even 9 - 5 is too much for this strange character, it's not surprising.

And in 1987 the Africans suddenly started taking over.

Yeah, Aouita's 'range' was mostly the result of ducking rivals. 'If things are going well' - translates as - if Coe, Cram, Konchellah, and Cruz are all injured.

'Impossible to win the 5000m whilst training for the 800m'. Yet if Ovett had entered the 800m and 5000m in Moscow he would have been one of the medal favourites for the 5000m. He only lost to Treacy, who finished 7th in the Moscow final a week earlier, because he was exhausted, had a bad cold, and was too arrogant.

I doubt if Aouita was serious about entering the 5000m in Seoul, but he claimed he was in order to get some media attention after being peeved that the focus was on Lews/Johnson.

Aouita did enjoy the media attention didn't he?

I wonder if a fully fit Aouita in 1988 could have beaten Rono in the 1500m or Ngugi in the 5000m.

Would he have followed Ngugi?!

Thread tldr, 8 pages on something that did not happen, could not happen and is like saying "would Manchester United of 1958 pre air crash have beaten Manchester United 1968 or 1994".

Eras are different, move on and just think how good each of those were at the time. At the time John Walker set the mile record he was the best ever and so on and so on. You cannot compare times of different eras.

I Am Sam wrote:

Thread tldr, 8 pages on something that did not happen, could not happen and is like saying "would Manchester United of 1958 pre air crash have beaten Manchester United 1968 or 1994".

Eras are different, move on and just think how good each of those were at the time. At the time John Walker set the mile record he was the best ever and so on and so on. You cannot compare times of different eras.

What are you talking about? Coe and Aouita's careers overlapped by over half-a-decade. In fact, Aouita was running on the European circuit when Coe was breaking his world records (but Aouita wasn't good enough then to appear in the main races). Aouita was the same age as Cram.

Coe actually set his 1500m pb a year after Aouita set his. When Coe won gold in LA in 84, Aouita ducked him to run in the 5000, despite running the fastest 1500 of the year.

If Coe hadn't injured his back early in the season in 85, his best 1500/Mile year might well have been that year, the same year Aouita (and Cram) were at their 1500/Mile best.

I Am Sam wrote:

Thread tldr, 8 pages on something that did not happen, could not happen and is like saying "would Manchester United of 1958 pre air crash have beaten Manchester United 1968 or 1994".

Eras are different, move on and just think how good each of those were at the time. At the time John Walker set the mile record he was the best ever and so on and so on. You cannot compare times of different eras.

It was the same era mate.

Coe v Aouita.

UK v Morocco.

Nike v Lotto.

800m runner v 5000m runner.

It would have been a great race if they both went for the 1500m/mile WR.

Pius XIII wrote:

I Am Sam wrote:

Thread tldr, 8 pages on something that did not happen, could not happen and is like saying "would Manchester United of 1958 pre air crash have beaten Manchester United 1968 or 1994".

Eras are different, move on and just think how good each of those were at the time. At the time John Walker set the mile record he was the best ever and so on and so on. You cannot compare times of different eras.

It was the same era mate.

Coe v Aouita.

UK v Morocco.

Nike v Lotto.

800m runner v 5000m runner.

It would have been a great race if they both went for the 1500m/mile WR.

Aouita wore Nike spikes for a number of years.

How did Coe injure his back?

Jan Janssen wrote:

Pius XIII wrote:

It was the same era mate.

Coe v Aouita.

UK v Morocco.

Nike v Lotto.

800m runner v 5000m runner.

It would have been a great race if they both went for the 1500m/mile WR.

Aouita wore Nike spikes for a number of years.

Coe wore Diadora when he was at, or near his career peak (according to this thread).

Coe wore Nike from 78 (possibly earlier), and was sponsored by them from 79, up to and including the LA OLympics.

In 85 he wore Diadora, and did so for the rest of his career.

High-Octane Doping wrote:

One report states that rHuEPO was banned in 1987 by the IOC though WADA's own site states it was banned in the "early 90s." The IOC also states there was evidence of use at the 1988 Calgary Winter Games & Seoul Olympic Games. Deaths from the alleged use of rHuEPO with professional cyclists were reported from 1987 through 1991. So it seems, IMO, that 1987 might have been the earliest that athletes could get their hands on rHuEPO.

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/455387http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1517-86922003000300006

Excellent research (as is always the case). Notice the "intravenous iron," smells like an AlSal idea.

This all very much confirms that epo was more widely available prior to 1990 than just a dozen or so cyclists experimenting.

darbepoetin alpha, interesting.

"No positive case for rHuEPO was reported during the Olympics, even though there was some indication that a small number of athletes had apparently discontinued rHuEPO use few weeks prior to their arrival in Sydney 93,94." This would be interesting further research to find out how they know this but links 93 & 94 are no longer available.

Deanouk wrote:

Coe wore Nike from 78 (possibly earlier), and was sponsored by them from 79, up to and including the LA OLympics.

In 85 he wore Diadora, and did so for the rest of his career.

Why did Nike drop Coe in 1985? Were they on the Cram bandwagon?

It seems in the 1984 OG, a lot of runners were wearing Nike spikes/shoes.

Cruz, Coe, Aouita, Cova and Lopes all won with Nike.