Norwegian runner Sondre Moen 59:47 in Valencia half. 3rd best half by a non-african ever

no

you shoud have enough sense by now to know that that calculator says nothing about PBs just about what current shape they are in

that's why i asked you for the guy's estimate of current 400 shape & try to find a line of fit with that & 59-high, nothing about PBs

i have estimated the slow guys run about 55 for 400 when in their best shape & this guy is in his best 1/2M shape ever

when he started off as a kid, his 400 speed maya been 53, perhaps even 52 but of course he had no serious endurance then

it's a mistake to even use 3'33 for his peak 1500 ability

he actually ran a 3'33pb in hengelo in '04 of which i didn't see much detail of but his biggest profile 1500 was in '05 in london where off nonsense pacer splits of 53+/1'51+ then crawl to 1200 in 2'50 he finished a narrow 4th in 3'33.80 behind Bernie winning in 3'33.12

the pacing was terrible & perhaps poor conditions because Bernie later in year ran 3'29.30 off better pacing

i'm not saying Eliud was worth 3'29 that day in ideal race but i have no doubt he couda gone 3'30/3'31 that day off ideal pacing

no way is 3'33 a figure to use for his peak 1500 ability, not as bad as stating hicham was only a 1'46 guy, but it's still bad

no way

perhaps you mean 3'42 in Eldoret at 7,000' but no way is Eliud only capable of 3'42 at sea-level

currently he shoud be capable of 3'37 +/- 1s

he very much certainly has 53 or 54s speed currently & 2"02'00 on a track is far from generous

54.00 / 2"02'00

->

1'52.58

3'38.88

7'34.93

12'59.31

26'55.88

59'00

to

53.00 / 2"02'00

->

1'50.88

3'36.19

7'30.67

12'53.59

26'48.16

58'52

& these are far from generous as M distance really is too far beyond human's ideal physiological distance which can be seen from 1/2M estimate

no way was Eliud only in 58'50 shape in berlin, much more like 58'00 - 58'15

err...

yes, that is what i & calculator always use

Eliud had likely 52/53 speed at 5k peak but now 53/54 seems more like it

i don't believe his speed has dropped much

no way though is he only in 3'42 or 7'43 shape & 13'10 is not likely either

yes

but for umpteenth time, any distance runner has a finite 400 & 800 speed at whatever current shape they are in for whatever their speciality distance is - 1500 or 3k or 5k ... or M

you can use that 400/800 speed to estimate their ability at any intermediate distance & for your norweigian, he can currenly go 27'15 - 27'20 if you put him in a fast sustained pace run from gun to bell NOT 27'45 pace to 9k & hope for the best, but 27'15 - 27'20 pace from the gun to finish

no

i am talking with NO specific training for 1500/3k/5k/10k but off his current 1/2M training if he got into fast sustained shorter distance races, we shoud be ooking in perfect race at 3'40++/13'10/27'15 - 27'20

you forget yourself that very few races nowdays on track have fast sustained pace from gun

your own boys Cherono ran 12'48 in 1st serious 5k beating hicham & if quicker pace 3 - 4k, he wouda been looking at 12'42 - 12'45 that day or Kemboi who ran 26'30 in his 1st serious 10k with 1'23 last 600, all because he got fast sustained pace from gun - finish, he probably was in 26'20 shape that day as even the pace that day to 9400 was far too slow for him

similarly, you are never going to test the limits of this norweigan by telling him to only go at 27'45 pace throughout & try to kick in last lap but tell him to go for 27'15 from gun & wear a watch & monitor his splits

you don't know limits until you try to explore them from the gun !

all i'm saying theoretically, if he was as good at M as he is at 1/2M with his speed profile which is of very slow 400/800 but far more importantly very slow speed decay, his M potential is currently at limit of 2"03+...

calculo, what mental disorder do you have?

he is off shell:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_shell_and_off_shell

This is very impressive training. Moen showed a huge commitment and I can see how he ran sub 60. Except for Galen there really is no other elite runner in the US that trains at this level. I guess it does come down to hard work.

Renato, thank you so much. Really, all of this information is incredible insight, both into the technical preparation and execution of an athlete as well as into the philosophical approach for that athlete's development.

For all the negative noise and chatter that can come on the boards, it's posts like this that make this community of runners so damn awesome. A professor volunteering his expertise to aspirational students with no expectation of reward or praise.

Always, thanks.

Depends on what is the "back up" for this 10:00 at 3 km. ....Natural talent as speed limit and the total cardio- vascular system. It`s absolutely possible at only 50 km per week to reach international level. I am convinced.

I don`t say that mr Canova isn`t a brilliant coach.....How could I? He has coached many fantastic runners to medals and records.

But his system have two weak parts as I see it. It`s very difficult to interpret his system to yourself without his help or his assistant coaches help. For example it`s not sure that recovery times in intervals that Sondre use also will suit you. And the amount of high mileage will not suit every runner given because of other pressures in life with job , family life and so on if you are not a fulltime runner.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

Depends on what is the "back up" for this 10:00 at 3 km. ....Natural talent as speed limit and the total cardio- vascular system. It`s absolutely possible at only 50 km per week to reach international level. I am convinced.

Oh my God this is so stupid! You know you will find NO runner in the last 70 years, that have been top-tier, who trains like you propose.

Coachjswho wrote:

[quote]COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

Depends on what is the "back up" for this 10:00 at 3 km. ....Natural talent as speed limit and the total cardio- vascular system. It`s absolutely possible at only 50 km per week to reach international level. I am convinced.

You have the likes of LAgat who trains 60-70 miles week (which is the double of 50 km), and you have the likes of Nick Willis and a few others that train one time a day, but Willis averages almost 100 miles a week during the winter.

By the way, how is your runner Sammy Nyokaye doing? I remember that in the summer of 2015 you said he would be near world records within 2-3 years under your tutelage. He istn't even close, is he?

No offense to Sammy btw, but to you

Didn`t you see! He was close to beat the high altitude "world record" (world best) in Mully half this spring in Kenya.

1.01.40.....just 8 sec from the world best ever! And he beat A. Kangogo to 3:rd place in that race .....a runner that won in Copenhagen half last year 59.30. You can watch the later stages in the race at YouTube.

Much thanks, Renato, for your informative posts about Moen's training and about training in general.

This is bloody brilliant, utterly genius. Ignore all the haters, just envy. U R a real Renaissance man. Might I make one recommendation for future. Base your marathon predictions on 200m not 400m, this will make it even more accurate.

I'm pretty sure that he was part of ABBA.

Tangent Tim wrote:

Base your marathon predictions on 200m not 400m, this will make it even more accurate.

Unfortunately calculator I use only has limit to 400m. This is because that is shortest distance which can theoretically be run at even-pace, albeit it is usually a +ve split race with ideal 200 splits of ~ 1s. It is also "symmetrical" with 2 bends/2 straights meaning importantly race starts/finishes at same point.

200m is never run at even pace with straight ~ 1s quicker than bend & not symmetrical as it doesn't start/finish at same point. It is vitally important for using shorter distances where the race starts/finishes at same point for an input/output ( doesn't matter for 1k/1500/3k/5k as they can theoretically be run at even-pace which is main quaifier ). Therefore not really possible to use a 200m input or output.

calculo wrote:

Tangent Tim wrote:

Base your marathon predictions on 200m not 400m, this will make it even more accurate.

Unfortunately calculator I use only has limit to 400m. This is because that is shortest distance which can theoretically be run at even-pace, albeit it is usually a +ve split race with ideal 200 splits of ~ 1s. It is also "symmetrical" with 2 bends/2 straights meaning importantly race starts/finishes at same point.

200m is never run at even pace with straight ~ 1s quicker than bend & not symmetrical as it doesn't start/finish at same point. It is vitally important for using shorter distances where the race starts/finishes at same point for an input/output ( doesn't matter for 1k/1500/3k/5k as they can theoretically be run at even-pace which is main quaifier ). Therefore not really possible to use a 200m input or output.

calculo, you're the father i never had.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:I don`t say that mr Canova isn`t a brilliant coach.....How could I? He has coached many fantastic runners to medals and records

he certainly is good but there are flaws

man one is that he doesn't encourage any weight-training

i was shocked to read that he said that vivian cheruyiot, not one of his runners but aware of her training, has never done 1 nanosecond of weights in her life !!!

she has the big gold & ran 29'32 !!!

how much faster coud she have been with some weight-training ???

this is the proof in the pudding : Korir is by far the best active 800 talent out there who had an execrable 1'46/1'47pb before he went to texas last year

he ran 1'43.1 on circuit when tired from long season but earlier had run 1'43.7 off huge -ve splits & inadequate drafting, a run which ideally off 2s +ve splits & perfect drafting to bell wouda been 1'42-low

he has gone from 1'46/1'47 in 1y to 1'42-low ability !!!

this is why & imagine what the run of the mill current Kenyan 1'43/1'44, 3'31/3'32, 7'30+, 13'00+, 27'00+, 2"05+ coud run if they followed below :

Don't forget Coe!! He was also weight training! If not, he would have been a 1:47 guy!!

Calculo/Ventolin, don't put in the same pot runners of 800m and Marathon : the requirements for the events are very much different.

And, also, don't put in the same pot training in US (or Europe) and Africa, where all the athletes run a lot of km on hilly courses, that have the effect to improve the strength (specifically the strength endurance) more than using some specific session of weight lifting in a gym (something athletes have to do if their training is Always in flat areas).

If we find athletes with so wonderful natural technical action, such as Vivian Cheruiyot or Mary Keitany, who have the quality to use little fuel at the speed of long distances, and are 37 kg heavy, to use weights can only destroy the perfect balance (natural for them) they have between the speed, the specific endurance and the consumption of fuel.

Put in your mind that coaching is not something you can do with a calculator, but is to find different solution, on individual basis, for every athlete, looking at their morphology, their attitudes and the enviroment of their training.

You can find good "theorical" basis for your calculator, but can't consider all the factors out of your control.

Coaching an African athlete means to manage continuous emergencies, since a lot of factors are out of control.

Coaching is not a science, is an art.