Seppelt, numerous journalists and officials have been to Iten/Eldoret and claim it is easy to buy epo from pharmacies for €65 ($75).
He ran better in Berlin than in Monza.
Seppelt, numerous journalists and officials have been to Iten/Eldoret and claim it is easy to buy epo from pharmacies for €65 ($75).
He ran better in Berlin than in Monza.
In kipchoges wiki it says that we was born November 1984 and that he graduated secondary school in 1999. Is secondary school like high school in America? According to wiki I think it is(it says there is 8 years of primary 4 years secondary and 4 years university). Ig thats thr case then he graduated secondary school at age 14 or 15 or really is four or five years older. Doesn't mean anything directly to doping but if he was willing to fudge his age back in 2002ish, probably at the behest of a agent or handler, do you think he might have been offered epo as well.
Again none of this is direct evidence, but maybe help people to challenge the thought in there head the kipchoge is an absolute saint. I like the guy and there is no is no direct evidence so far he has doped, but maybe he should at least come clean about his age to bolster his credibility. Again anyone been to Kenya and know if it's even possible to graduate secondary that young? Or if he really graduated in 99.
Also Canova said something about epo not working for marathoners because it's a sub maximal event. Bull sht, what about cyclists, they all improved greatly on epo in a event with mostly sub maximal efforts. I do know from peer reviewed research the Ethiopians( and probably Kenyans) have incredible natural genetic adaption to life at high altitude which includes up regulation of genes related to oxygen carrying capacity, but to state that epo doesn't help top level Kenyans seems improbable to me.
LM wrote:
bigtool05 wrote:
You're whole argument in paragraph 2 is based on the assumption that Yuki's 2:08 is the best possible clean marathon. How likely is that? How likely is it that there's no clean marathoner faster than this squat Japanese man who works a full time job and races a marathon every other weekend?
I don't think you understand my post at all if that's your response. If there are faster clean performances then that would make Kipchoge less of an outlier, and therefore increase the likelihood of Kipchoge being clean.
Who I picked is irrelevant. If I took the clean benchmark to be 2:20, my point would still hold...which is that there is nothing to say that you can't have some human come along with ridiculous physiology and attitude we haven't seen before come along who can run 3%, 5%, or 10% faster than previous clean runners, or dopers. It's an objection to the "Previous WR is doped and most of the guys who run this fast are doped, therefore this new WR must also be doped".
So let me get this straight, you're objecting to the argument that Kipchoge must be doped because other WR holders were likely doped, and you're doing it by.... using a 2:08 guy as your clean baseline then pointing out unlikely it is that a clean athlete is 5% faster than this baseline? Doesn't sound like much of an objection to me. If anything it sounds like a ringing endorsement of the argument you purport to be objecting to.
These threads are meaningless. He has never tested positive, he has no relationships with dicey coaches, agents or doctors and seems to be a person of high character. On the other hand, he is a Kenyan and ran really fast.
There is no evidence to support either opinion.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
These threads are meaningless. He has never tested positive, he has no relationships with dicey coaches, agents or doctors and seems to be a person of high character. On the other hand, he is a Kenyan and ran really fast.
There is no evidence to support either opinion.
Dude, Kipchoge is cheating about his age. That's juts the starting point.
nnnn wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
These threads are meaningless. He has never tested positive, he has no relationships with dicey coaches, agents or doctors and seems to be a person of high character. On the other hand, he is a Kenyan and ran really fast.
There is no evidence to support either opinion.
Dude, Kipchoge is cheating about his age. That's juts the starting point.
He allegedly was an age cheat, but if he was, it's hardly proof that he is a doper. It's like claiming marijuana is a "gateway drug".
I'm the typical skeptic that assumes most world record performances are not clean these days. I'm American and don't think Rupp is clean and I think Farah's progress is a fairy tale. Thats been discussed here plenty though. But look at Kipchoge's background, training, etc and then compare it to a guy like Jack Foster from almost 50 years ago. The guy started running at 32, was rumored to run low mileage, and ran 2:11 at age 40. If you want to call someone dirty let's talk about his performance. Kipchoge looks clean compared to him. Maybe his cycling background gave him a huge edge. Come on! He more likely was on something, like most cyclists back then were doping. Buy everyone piles on the Africans. They can't imagine anyone can be clean.
bigtool05 wrote:
LM wrote:
I don't think you understand my post at all if that's your response. If there are faster clean performances then that would make Kipchoge less of an outlier, and therefore increase the likelihood of Kipchoge being clean.
Who I picked is irrelevant. If I took the clean benchmark to be 2:20, my point would still hold...which is that there is nothing to say that you can't have some human come along with ridiculous physiology and attitude we haven't seen before come along who can run 3%, 5%, or 10% faster than previous clean runners, or dopers. It's an objection to the "Previous WR is doped and most of the guys who run this fast are doped, therefore this new WR must also be doped".
So let me get this straight, you're objecting to the argument that Kipchoge must be doped because other WR holders were likely doped, and you're doing it by.... using a 2:08 guy as your clean baseline then pointing out unlikely it is that a clean athlete is 5% faster than this baseline? Doesn't sound like much of an objection to me. If anything it sounds like a ringing endorsement of the argument you purport to be objecting to.
Close, but an important detail is either missing from your analysis or not correctly stated by me. I'm not objecting to the argument Kipchoge is a fairly probably doper. I think that's an incredibly fair point given sport history and circumstance.
I'm objecting to the claim Clerk made that Kipchoge is ABSOLUTELY for sure 100% doped. I'm doing so by saying that we have no idea, and that it's possible some guy could be 5% better than anyone else. If the clean best is say 2:05, then Kipchoge would be even less of an outlier.
The key point is that we have no definitive way to rule out that one athlete can't be 1%, 3%, 5%, or even 10% better than any athlete that came before him. In so far as I know their is some speculation, but not rock solid evidence on human performance limits. Nothing that prevents a "king among outliers".
The likelihood of this is a different question. I'm objecting to absolutely certain statements that "Kipchoge is doping because he ran fast".
Foster may have :
A) massively understated his weekly training.
Or
B) mastered cross training, all the reports indicate he did a lot of cycling throughout his life and was sadly hit on his bike.
What would he have been on? 2:11 is dirty but 2:01 is clean come on.
1runnerboy wrote:
Lets suggest this. Kipchoge's group is open to train with. All of you EPO and PED critics, pony up the cost of a flight to Kenya and spend a marathon training block with him and his training group. I'm certain you'll come back with zero evidence of any illegal stuff. May he's just more talented and much more mentally tough than anyone else in the sport. period. He's not gone 202 then DNFed or not even started his last five marathons. He's consistent, puts in the work and is so mentally tough it begs if he's clean. Like previous poster commented, Breaking 2 Monza event, if nothing else confirmed for him he can run at a 2 hour flat pace for the duration. Perhaps it took a bit longer to fully recover from the stress of that race, and Berlin 2018 was the pinnacle for him.
So according to your logic, if you don't see it, he must not be doing it? That's not much of any logic, is it now? Question everything, people should never get offended or defensive when questions are being asked.
what's deal with Kipchoge? wrote:
Sub Max wrote:
No.
He chooses to live like a pauper, runs no more than two marathons a year despite the allure of big city pay outs. He runs, rests, carries out communal chores and reads, that is it. Anyone who meets him is struck by the laser sharp focus of the guy.
Great, thanks for that :)
How gullible are people?
Of course he's doped. Get off the soy.
nnnn wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
These threads are meaningless. He has never tested positive, he has no relationships with dicey coaches, agents or doctors and seems to be a person of high character. On the other hand, he is a Kenyan and ran really fast.
There is no evidence to support either opinion.
Dude, Kipchoge is cheating about his age. That's juts the starting point.
True. He's three or four years older than what he states, so that only adds to the mess.
Just asking wrote:
In kipchoges wiki it says that we was born November 1984 and that he graduated secondary school in 1999. Is secondary school like high school in America? According to wiki I think it is(it says there is 8 years of primary 4 years secondary and 4 years university). Ig thats thr case then he graduated secondary school at age 14 or 15 or really is four or five years older. Doesn't mean anything directly to doping but if he was willing to fudge his age back in 2002ish, probably at the behest of a agent or handler, do you think he might have been offered epo as well.
Again none of this is direct evidence, but maybe help people to challenge the thought in there head the kipchoge is an absolute saint. I like the guy and there is no is no direct evidence so far he has doped, but maybe he should at least come clean about his age to bolster his credibility. Again anyone been to Kenya and know if it's even possible to graduate secondary that young? Or if he really graduated in 99.
Also Canova said something about epo not working for marathoners because it's a sub maximal event. Bull sht, what about cyclists, they all improved greatly on epo in a event with mostly sub maximal efforts. I do know from peer reviewed research the Ethiopians( and probably Kenyans) have incredible natural genetic adaption to life at high altitude which includes up regulation of genes related to oxygen carrying capacity, but to state that epo doesn't help top level Kenyans seems improbable to me.
Canova is full of cow puckey. Kipchoge is a high responder to EPO or whatever. Someone else may have more talent but not get the boost he gets. Just the way it goes.
Whatever durian rider says on the matter is the final word.
Clerk wrote:
He hasn't failed a test, but here's what we know. An EPO test had been developed in 2001. In 2003, he emerged, winning Jr. XC and WC gold in 5000m. But before 2014, as Canova has said, there were no out of competition blood teats in Kenya. We also know that the EPO urine test has a small detection window (just a few hours), and that many urine samples are not analyzed for EPO (it is a seperate protocol from the stantard screening). We know that the development of the Biopassport has been called a guide for Blood Doping, because it gives more specfic parameters for what will be considered 'okay'. We know that athletes at altitude are less likely to be decided unanimously by the ABP panel for suspicion to open a case. We know that Kenyan and IAAF officials have offered and accepted bribes to cover up doping positives. We know that the current situation in Kenya for OOC tests is advanced warning, as a logistical necessity to bring athletes to a single location for testing.
We know that Kipchoge is incredibly talented. We know he is one of the most committed athletes on the planet. We know he has the hest genetics for distance running, and is immersed in the best culture for training. We know he is one of the all time fasteat performers in 5000m, 10000m and the marathon. We know that he isnfaster than known dopers, (and unknown dopers by inference). We know that doping offers a huge benefit, 3-10% by different analytic tools. (ready to watch the thread explode over that one?). We know the introduction of EPO caused a massive improvement in performances in all populations. We know Kenyans of the highest level have chosen to dope. We know that support staff for Kenyans of the highest level have facilitated doping.
It is up to you to decide if Kipchoge's work ethic and talent is enough to out-do other elite athletes who are doping (its not). It's up to you to decide if an athlete can maintain his performance level without doping (no one can). It's up to you do look beyond the direct evidence, and know that performance level and anti-doping context of the science and NADO are valid evidence to make a conclusion.
Another thing we can be sure of is that Nike helped him with the Sub 2 Project and that included plenty of doctor help - just watch the documentary. It is doubtful that Nike would openly break doping rules, but it is likely that they tested the athlete's blood and gave them every supplement possible to make sure their blood chemistry was optimum. Probably just inside of legal, but not in the spirit of the sport. But when there is money to be made, people will find a way.
YouCantHandleTheTruth! wrote:
Another thing we can be sure of is that Nike helped him with the Sub 2 Project and that included plenty of doctor help - just watch the documentary. It is doubtful that Nike would openly break doping rules, but it is likely that they tested the athlete's blood and gave them every supplement possible to make sure their blood chemistry was optimum. Probably just inside of legal, but not in the spirit of the sport. But when there is money to be made, people will find a way.
You must be new here
Surely, Letsrunners can’t be too stupid to realise they’re actually responding to comments from two years ago including one for which I (unjustly) served a lengthy ban? They’re all smart enough to check the dates before hitting reply, right?
Man up people wrote:
what's deal with Kipchoge? wrote:
Great, thanks for that :)
How gullible are people?
Of course he's doped. Get off the soy.
Love it how butthurt you are, oh LRC resident anti-Kenyan.
Just asking wrote:
Again none of this is direct evidence, but maybe help people to challenge the thought in there head the kipchoge is an absolute saint.
This reminds me a lot about Radcliffe from 2002 - 2005...
But, I gotta say in Kipchoge's defense that unlike Radcliffe, he was never caught with 20% - 30% jumps in Hct within a few days, and he didn't slow down 8 minutes in the marathon after being placed on the IAAF's watchlist and after the more reliable EPO test came out. Remember that post 2005, Radcliffe never broke 2:23 again, retiring in 2012 right after her last ABP violation.
Kipchoge also wasn't judged by the IAAF to be a likely doper in contrast to e.g. Radcliffe, Keitany, Kiprop, Farah, Hassan, Jager, and Rupp.
In other words, if he is a doper (quite likely!), he dopes gently under consideration of thresholds and glowing times, what some here lovingly call micro-dosing or even grey area.
think_about_it wrote:
So essentially, what you're saying is that there can be no 'best-of-the-best'. Your argument makes no sense in the larger context and in view of the history of sport. There have always been great athletes who consistently outperformed. Think of other superstars:
Wayne Gretzky
Michael Jordan
Babe Ruth
Tiger Woods
Roger Federer
Lionel Messi
All dopers by your argument, because how could they maintain their performance level against other 'elite' athletes without some drug.
Forget Babe Ruth. Of the rest the only one who is not widely believed to be a doper is Gretzky. Woods is without doubt, Federer is probably the most doped sportsman of all time, and Messi grew up taking all manner of drugs, and surely still does - he's the bionic man.