Minimalist, what was your experience?

Here's Jack Daniel's opinion from Daniel's Running Formula:

1. Each type of shoe has it's own economy characteristics and to take full advantage of these chracteristics you must do some actual training in the shoes

2. Each type of shoe has it's own mechanical characteristics, and it can be disastrous never to train under the conditions that will be facing you in a race.

It is hard to document how many injuries have resulted from wearing "new" shoes in a race, shoes that fit and function differently from those used in practice. To never wear racing shoes in practice is like never training at race pace. It's always risky to let the conditions of a race be completely foreign to you, and that includes wearing shoes whose effects on your economy and your feet are unpredictable.

What are the advantages of training in a shoe that you will not race in?

You're comparing apples and oranges. I could list several advantages to training at paces other than goal race pace.

I have been averaging in the 90-95 mpw range for about a month exclusively in flats. Fine so far, and my stride seems to be becoming a little more fluid.

Here's Jack Daniel's opinion from Daniel's Running Formula:

This is a very selective reading of Daniels! You left out the sentence prior to that, where I am convinced that some training should be done in racing shoes. Note that he doesn't say "all". He says, "some".

Among his claims are: contrary to popular belief, it is not necessarily true that the lighter the shoe, the more economical will be the running", and on barefoot running, he says that barefoot running produces poor economy for most runners on a hard road (or a treadmill) -- note that the surface you use does matter! (he goes on to say that barefoot running is probably fine -- on the right surface)

Whether or not you can match my pr's is not the point of the discussion. I do feel that my personal experience and the experience of others does show that normal healthy people that don't have serious biomechanical deficiency will a "lower rate of injury". I am sorry that you don't understand why, but that it is what makes this discussion a good one. Atleast there are somethings that we can agree on. And by the way my goal is not that everyone wear the same flat as I do.

Do you work with shoes on a daily basis? If so what are your thoughts on how much is the appropriate amount for each individual?

I wonder what JD's analysis of Bikila's footstrike at Rome would be.

Where did you come up with this dogma wagon? I have stated that I just began training in flats 6 months ago, and it was not because I was injured in "Training Shoes". I simply began to look at biomechanics and the importance of it. I came to the conclusion that because I have a very efficient mid/foot forefoot gait, that there was no need to continue wearing shoes with a inch and half heel lift that inhibited me from having my natural efficient footstrike. Surely you can understand that right? I don't think someone should wait until they are injured to examine their footwear!

I keep trying to get thru to everyone that you have to change your opinion of what the shoes primary function is. It is to assist the body in its natural fuction, not take over the responsibility. That is what happens with the more shoe you put on your foot. There are plenty of studies out there that support this idea. I can't make everyone understand this like I do, but believe me I do try and look at it from every angle so I can give each person I help excellent advise on their footwear as well as their training.

Trackhead,

Just curious what is your favorite shoe to wear during the day?

How many miles do you normally run during the week in Flats?

either the H Street or the Maxcat Street. The Maxcat Street if it is particularly cold or raining.

Okay elford,

I am curious to know what shoes you train in and why?

Sure surfaces affect the foot and ankle differently, but it doesn't change its function and its ability to do the task. Once the body is trained to handle the activity one is putting on it the less important the surface becomes.

Mr. Flats wrote:

How many miles do you normally run during the week in Flats?

Was that question directed at me?

I'm 31 with a pretty good high school and college racing career and, until last year, I NEVER trained in flats because....you know...that's how you get injured. I started doing one track session a week in October in flats mainly because the others in my group wore them and I couldn't hold the pace in my trainers. Yesterday was the first time I considered wearing them during a training run and they felt pretty darn good.

I am a big fan of gradual progression (from years of learning the hard way). I currently run less than 60 miles a week and plan to build up to 70 in March. Starting yesterday I run about 10 of those miles in flats. I plan on adding 3 to 5 miles of "flats" running every week (replacing my "trainers" miles) and monitoring the progress/regress....depending on the situation.

Looking back on my track sessions, I noticed that at the end of a good workout....right when I am at my limit...my form always felt like it fell apart..mainly the foot fall. That was running in trainers. I noticed I did not have that problem in flats.

Where can you find specs on heel to forefoot height ratios for shoes? I tried measuring mine last night and was getting numbers way different than what were posted on here....something like 35/24.

I am curious to know what shoes you train in and why?

For speed work, Tiger paws, and Nike Streak XC. Because I like them. Treadmill runs: DS Racers. These wouldn't be my first choice of shoe now, but I can live with them. For training runs, I usually run in the

Mizuno precision -- because it's light, flexible, good "road feel", yet well cushioned. It also happens to be more "minimalist" than shoes that a lot of wannabe minimalists are wearing (such as high-heeled, posted "flats", or even posted trainers like the NB900)

But most importantly, the reason why I use what I use is -- why mess with what works ? Can you document just one benefit I would obtain from switching to flats for training runs ?

Once the body is trained to handle the activity one is putting on it the less important the surface becomes.

That's a nice theory, but I'm not going to blow my metatarsals in pursuit of the experiment I'd need to do to verify it.

Jag1,

You always say that whenever you have some sort of pain or tightness you just take your shoes off and go for a barefoot jog and your pain is gone. Could you elaborate more on this?

Also, I think you've posted before that you live in Boulder. How do you do barefoot runs in the winter / times of the year when the weather makes barefoot running more difficult?

Thanks,

GS

I don't put more weight on any one of the different overuse running injuries. It doesn't sound like all the scientific research in the world would change your thinking. I'll let you know how my experience goes. So far 6 months of Nike Vapors IV and Zoom Streak XC. I and can honestly say it has been the best experiment I have ever done thus far. Good luck on your training!

I've been doing all my training in the nike ghost racers the last 2 months. I need a new pair. Can you guys recommend any flats that have a profile more suited to someone with flat feet that are a bit wide. I think the more straightlasted or wider based the better for me.

Thanks,

GS

elflord wrote:

[ For training runs, I usually run in the

Mizuno precision -- because it's light, flexible, good "road feel", yet well cushioned. It also happens to be more "minimalist" than shoes that a lot of wannabe minimalists are wearing (such as high-heeled, posted "flats", or even posted trainers like the NB900)

But most importantly, the reason why I use what I use is -- why mess with what works ? Can you document just one benefit I would obtain from switching to flats for training runs ?

.

Is the Mizuno Precision AS minimal as the NB900? It looks a lot like the Wave Rider. Do you know how it (the Precision) compares to the Asics Magic Racer which I train in.

Also to anyone who has dealt with injuries during the switch and transition to flats, it is mostlikely because you are not strong enough nor efficent enough to run in flats. So I'd say get a pair of lightweight trainers (ds trainers or NB900 according the the minimal experts).

I've know that I am not strong enough for flats and would bet the farm that I am probably not efficent enough either. The most likely cause of my PF problems now. That and being an idiot and running on really soft grass in my flats. Going to pick up some 900's today.

GS