Get the inside scoop on Drew Hunter's training - LetsRun's feature on Tom "Tinman" Schwartz

Metric Miler wrote:

I think you are changing the point you are making. People can be bio-mechanically different due to bone and muscle structure. Range of movement at a joint is another completely mechanical factor.

Nobody can tell me that Tinman's training is creating more efficient movement patterns in Drew's nervous system. That would be grossly overstating the depth to which Tinman has been working on.

Pracricing relaxed running is common sense and pretty much all athletes do some relaxed pace stuff, be it an easy run or strides on the track.

There is nothing wrong with working hard either.

Your missing the point. Improving bio-mechanical efficiency of your running technique makes you a faster runner. Improving bio-mechanical efficiency of your cycling technique makes you a faster cyclist. etc etc

I don't know why people have such trouble understanding such a simple concept?

Now how you go about making those improvements? There you have an issue to discuss.

That's good. A lot of coaches just ignore these issues. My emphasis is on correct push-off technique. It has to be fast, and thus forceful and with perfect timing. I'm sure it makes the difference between an efficient running style and an innefficient one.

Lydiard had his hill springing workouts to emphasize this, but you have to be able to do it on the flat, on the downhills (if they are not too steep) and on different surfaces and at different paces etc etc.

Of course it does, I said that in my previous post.

What I said in that post is that to say that Tinman is knowingly improving the movement patterns of Drew and improving his biomechanical efficiency would be to grossly overstate the level of coaching that is actually taking place.

I then said that running at a relaxed pace i.e. not running very hard reps (which Tinman is against) is not knowingly improving biomechanical efficiency.

Do you understand the term 'running economy'?

Where do you think runners get that more economical motion from?

From improved technical efficiency, which is controlled by the brain. It's something you learn with practise. It's a skill. Running is a skill.

I can't speak for tinman, but I can speak for those who have studied this as their occupation in order to publish their work in science journals. But even long before that research was done, some intelligent coaches knew this already.

Jon, do you get into Gracovetsky and his Spinal Engine Theory of Locomotion at all?

Metric Miler wrote:

From the sounds of it, biomechanical efficiency is referring to the mechanical losses in the body as a mechanical system. Nothing to do with nerves or enzymes or whatever.

Losses due to imperfect technique are real. It is one of the reasons people with the same aerobic capacity run different times for the marathon.

Practice makes you more efficient. Paula Radcliffe has spoken about this before.

It's the firing of nerves that brings the mechanical parts together in a synchronized manner.

So to say that nerves don't matter is ridiculous.

Besides, on other threads Jon used the words nervous system. Of course, he can change his mind, like Paula does, when challenged on her claims.

When you look at his mechanics, they are far from world class.

But the actual results are elite.

So much for Jonny's theory

Jon Orange wrote:

Do you understand the term 'running economy'?

From improved technical efficiency, which is controlled by the brain. It's something you learn with practise. It's a skill. Running is a skill.

.

There, he said it again. But no studies showing change at the synaptic level.

fred wrote:

When you look at his mechanics, they are far from world class.

But the actual results are elite.

So much for Jonny's theory

You can't "look at" mechanics. When people say that, they just mean the prettiness of the runner's form, which isn't very telling. If you actually studied his mechanics, I'm sure they're excellent.

Ho Hum wrote:

fred wrote:

When you look at his mechanics, they are far from world class.

But the actual results are elite.

So much for Jonny's theory

You can't "look at" mechanics. When people say that, they just mean the prettiness of the runner's form, which isn't very telling. If you actually studied his mechanics, I'm sure they're excellent.

"In 1988, Serge Gracovetsky, Ph.D. expounded on this idea in his book titled ‘Spinal Engine’ by declaring that the legs were not responsible for gait but merely “instruments of expression”. He theorized that during heel strike, kinetic energy was not displaced into the earth as in the pedestrian model, but efficiently transmitted up through the myofascial system causing the spine to resonate in the gravitational field"

Yeah, Drew's spine resonates at a high level in the gravitational field.

Nope, a woman was running on my trails in the forest, and I looked at her form and said " you are an elite runner, who are you?". And she was the top university runner several years ago. It was evident in her bio mechanics that she had the capacity to be a great runner.

Talent.

Inside scoop on Hunter's training is almost certainly PEDs just like Rupp who was on testosterone from an early age.

Jon Orange wrote:

Do you understand the term 'running economy'?

.

"While the measurement of RE is often perceived as a simple concept, it is actually a multifactorial measure which reflects the combined functioning of the metabolic, cardiopulmonary, biomechanical and neuromuscular systems (Figure 2) [2,3,5,10]. Metabolic efficiency refers to the utilization of available energy to facilitate optimal performance [2,3], whereas cardiopulmonary efficiency refers to a reduced work output for the processes related to oxygen transport and utilization. Lastly, neuromuscular and biomechanical characteristics refer to the interaction between the neural and musculoskeletal systems and their ability to convert power output into translocation and therefore performance [5]. The multifaceted concept of RE, with multiple types of efficiency (that is, accounting for the work done and energy lost) may be intuitively understood by scientists, practitioners and coaches, nonetheless it has yet to be defined or discussed in great detail in the literature. The heritability of genetic traits is no doubt the prevailing factor affecting RE (Figure 2), however at the moment, there is limited research examining specific genotypes related to better economy"

Nonetheless it has yet to be defined or discussed in great detail in the literature.

It's OK, Jonny has a ton of theories to fill in the gaps.

Metabolic efficiency is not a term I'm happy with. Why not stick with the more accurate term Respiratory Exchange Ratio? Which measures the difference between oxygen uptake and carbon dioxide exhalation?

My point is that all of the metabolic functions are easily trainable and present in healthy active runners.

Running skill is a much more elusive quality. This is the point that you are deliberately ignoring.

fred wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

Do you understand the term 'running economy'?

From improved technical efficiency, which is controlled by the brain. It's something you learn with practise. It's a skill. Running is a skill.

.

There, he said it again. But no studies showing change at the synaptic level.

So you are saying there is no such thing as neuromotor skills development?

Have you always been this ignorant, or did you really have to work at it?

Ho Hum wrote:

fred wrote:

When you look at his mechanics, they are far from world class.

But the actual results are elite.

So much for Jonny's theory

You can't "look at" mechanics. When people say that, they just mean the prettiness of the runner's form, which isn't very telling. If you actually studied his mechanics, I'm sure they're excellent.

This.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Jon, do you get into Gracovetsky and his Spinal Engine Theory of Locomotion at all?

No. My interest in running skill is not so much theoretical as practical. I'm looking for ways to describe it that everyone can relate too. I think we all have untapped talent, it's innate, but to develop it (any skill or talent) we need lots of focus and support and interest from others.

What is really important to get across is that faster runners use less energy in total to run faster. So the faster you are, the easier it is. Think of it this way, who is hurting more, a man running a marathon in 2.04 or a man running the same marathon in 4.02? And who is using more energy? It's the slower guy.

So if we are serious about racing or coaching we should apply that information to how we approach our training, using less total energy to run faster instead of the idiotic 'no pain no gain' concept of training.

Thank you for the link.

Is it possible that the best system of training that is most overlooked is that of Bob Schul/Mihaly Igoli?

That is a tip for you my friend if you have not looked in to it. To me it's more important to run multiple paces than to run "CV."

I cringe when I read about Drew Hunter. Do you know that America has produced 8 high school sub-4 minute runners. But how many of them have produced internationally? Ryun, Liquori, and to a much lesser extent Alan Webb. It's not something to be proud of.

Why is this? The main reason is we race too much. I think Drew Hunter will continue to garner some great times. But if he continues racing without rest, he cannot reach his max.

Joe Newton said it decades ago, "Americans race too much."

Jed Clampett wrote:

Thank you for the link.

Is it possible that the best system of training that is most overlooked is that of Bob Schul/Mihaly Igoli?

That is a tip for you my friend if you have not looked in to it. To me it's more important to run multiple paces than to run "CV."

I cringe when I read about Drew Hunter. Do you know that America has produced 8 high school sub-4 minute runners. But how many of them have produced internationally? Ryun, Liquori, and to a much lesser extent Alan Webb. It's not something to be proud of.

Why is this? The main reason is we race too much. I think Drew Hunter will continue to garner some great times. But if he continues racing without rest, he cannot reach his max.

Joe Newton said it decades ago, "Americans race too much."

Danielson's was a fluke, Verzbicas was an incredibly promising triathlete until a freak accident, and give Fisher and Maton a bit of time, wow! Hunter isn't opening his spring season until Penn Relays and only has a couple relays the rest of the year. He's in good hands.