This is how deep is doping in Kenya

fred wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenergic_receptor#/media/File:Adrenoceptor-Signal_transduktion.PNG

If adrenaline binding to receptors on smooth muscles causes the muscle to contract in the circulatory system, and the system is less elastic, then the capability of the system to handle maximum blood flow would be impeded.

Vo2Max would decrease.

Increase in glycogenolysis, which if oxidised (lactate) increases oxygen uptake or if glycogneolytic ATP hydrolysis increases then the anaerobic proportion of the workload is greater.

In running terms it will increase oxygen uptake in a distance race. But the link you gave me does not relate specifically to any particular type of exercise.

Rustlers Rhapsody wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

Renato, you are right and Ferrari etc are wrong. What the fizzyologists haven't calculated is that faster marathon runners use LESS OXYGEN NOT MORE.

Because they are running faster due to better biomechanical efficiency, the total amount of energy and oxygen is less than a slower runner with the same physiology but less running skill development.

What is the "faster" point where this takes place?

It happens at all paces for which the athlete has trained.

I have a theory too wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

The fact some stupid athlete can take doping, and can run fast, doesn't mean he could not achieve the same performance training in the best way, completely clean (this in long distances, not for example in throwing).

Then does this not mean that stupid athlete has been able to shortcut his/her way to competitive performance levels before going through the peak levels of training that would eventually get them there? Can you not see the advantage that can be gained by artificially accelerating your progress, given that time is never on an athletes side?

What drug improves biomechanical efficiency? There is no such drug. It's a skill. Maybe you can't see the wood for the trees because you are unable to question the 'PED' concept?

As you would say, "It's just a theory"

Roulettte's syndrome wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

All studies have flaws. Researcher read into the data. How many studies have you seen which show "Improvement in VO2max of 6-7%"?

How much does adrenaline 'improve' VO2max, when the level is high compared to normal?

My guess is that it would be 6-7%. I'll put money on it. Anyone wanna take that bet?

Sure. You pay for the study and I'll take that bet.

I can do a simplified study, if you are willing to take part. Test my and others performance several times in one day, and see how I improve with each test. Why would that be?

Eddy was an extremely good runner. He also took EPO. He was one of those drug obsessives who are more confident when they take stuff.

Psychology. Was he physically capable of such a performance without EPO?

Yes.

Mentally?

No.

Jon Orange wrote:

I have a theory too wrote:

Then does this not mean that stupid athlete has been able to shortcut his/her way to competitive performance levels before going through the peak levels of training that would eventually get them there? Can you not see the advantage that can be gained by artificially accelerating your progress, given that time is never on an athletes side?

What drug improves biomechanical efficiency?

Irrelevant

Jon Orange wrote:

What drug improves biomechanical efficiency? There is no such drug. It's a skill. Maybe you can't see the wood for the trees because you are unable to question the 'PED' concept?

As you would say, "It's just a theory"

Jon,

I have no idea how you can be so reductionist.

Take this analogy: You have a car and you want the car to go farther on a tank of gas. You can do this by increasing the car's efficiency (more miles/gallon). You can also do this by installing a larger gas tank. You keep yelling that it is a skill and that you can only get faster through greater efficiency. Either way works.

Training improves efficiency. Drugs allow you to train more. Claiming that it is just a psychological boost in the face of drug busts at the top of the sport is naive at best.

Here are a few names:

Rita Jeptoo

Liliya Shobukhova

Rashid Ramzi

Emily Chebet

Abderrahime Bouramdane

Mathew Kisorio

You may look further here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics#S

It's true : athletes taking EPO run faster because they train more, so they run faster BECAUSE OF TRAINING.

The real problem is that, without taking EPO, they NEVER supposed to be able to train more. Under this point of view, EPO (like other drugs) has a great placebo effect on the mind of some athletes, increasing motivation for training and cancelling frights about the possibility of recovering.

However, there are athletes, mentally strong, who accept to train with great volume and great intensity (such as all the top in the World) without taking any drug, and for that reason they achieve the same results, many times a little better because running at the top without drugs means to have a superior selfconfidence.

I think that, for controlling if top Kenyans are doped or not (forget Lombard, who is not in top 220 all time in the World : this is not the real Elite !), there is a very simple system :

WADA can carry out 10-12 OOC tests taking blood, in one year, for ALL the Kenyans who are in top 10 for every event, plus somebody else for Marathon, where times are not the only parameter.

In my calculation, we can have about 40 athletes in this situation :

Rudisha, Roberto Biwott and Ferguson Cheruiyot (800m), Asbel Kiprop, Silas Kiplagat, Elijah Managoi and Ronald Kwemoi (1500m), Paul Tanui, Caleb Ndiku, Thomas Longosiwa, Bedan Karoki and Geoffrey Kamworor (5000/10000m), Jairus Birech, Ezekiel Kemboi, Conslesus Kipruto, Brimin Kipruto and Paul Koech (steeple), Eliu Kipchoge, Wilson Kipsang, Dennis Kimetto, Geoffrey Mutai, Emmanuel Mutai, Patrick Makau, Abel Kirui and Eliud Kiptanui (Marathon)

Eunice Sum (800), Faith Kipyegon, Mercy Cherono, Viola Kibiwott, Vivian Cheruiyot (1500/5000/10000m), Mary Keitany, Florence Kiplagat, Edna Kiplagat, Gladys Cherono, Cynthia Limo, Peris Jepchirchir, Jemima Jelagat (HM and Marathon), Hyvin Jepkemoi, Virginia Nyambura and Milka Chemos (steeple).

These are 40 athletes, the best at the moment in Kenya. The total amount of tests at the end of one year can be 400, and, due to the continuity in the investigation, at the end of the season it's possible to have a TRUE PICTURE of all the parameters considered for the Biological Passport, with homogeneous data (all in altitude) that it's possible to compare with the data in competition at sea level.

Also if this is an expensive system, I think that, if the problem of doping in Kenya is so deep and important for all the athletic world, this can be considered an INVESTMENT very much better than a laughable research in Kenya with boys running 10'30" in 3000m, and something very much more serious than a warning to Andorra because there is not the local antidoping agency (this is for showing they work well, but it's only smog for the eyes of people thinking the most important problem in track and field are is the doping control). It's possible to see how much ridiculous is the warning for Andorra looking at their seasonal lists :

MEN : There are 2 athletes only in all the Country :

Paul Moya (800m in 1'52"24) and Michel Vilchez (PV 4.75)

WOMEN : There are 6 athletes in all the Country :

Christina Llovera (100m in 12"19 and 200m in 25"61)

Loia Isus (800m in 2'20"75 e 1500m in 4'46"10)

Maria Moratò (400 hs in 1'07"92 e Javelin 17.58)

Claudia Guri (HJ 1.75 - LJ 5.59 - TJ 12.16)

Ainara Revuelta (100 hs in 18"72 and 400 hs in 1'11"72)

Elena Villalot (Discus 21.27 and Hammer 36.81)

In Andorra was organized, in 2015, one competition only, on 28 Jun.

And, for WADA, this Country doesn't follow the rules of antidoping !

I'm the first who wants a strong antidoping agency, and strong and deep doping controls. The fact is that currently antidoping is a big business, and the Antidoping Agencies are the one having more advantages in this situation. Too many clowns around this business, who say only a part of the truth in order to ask for more money, instead trying to improve the system for catching the real dopers, but at the same time for cancelling the wrong suspicions about clean athletes.

Renato Canova wrote:

It's true : athletes taking EPO run faster because they train more, so they run faster BECAUSE OF TRAINING.

The real problem is that, without taking EPO, they NEVER supposed to be able to train more. Under this point of view, EPO (like other drugs) has a great placebo effect on the mind of some athletes, increasing motivation for training and cancelling frights about the possibility of recovering.

the growth hormone cortisone EPO and testosterone allow you to train much harder and therefore become a faster stronger and less injured athlete

This is not placebo..

Since top runners can run their best without drugs (EPO), then the same can be true for everyone else. The bottom line is that drugs don't fill any void not already available to the general population without any drug use.

Since these are both true, (1) top runners can compete better without drugs, and (2) the same is true for everyone else, then (3) wanting a strong anti doping agency is contradictory -- because when (1) is true, then (3) is not only not needed, but causes many problems and issues.

This is what I don't get, your contradictory attitude.

To keep people from being hurt by the drugs, personally I think the best way is to (1) show the best runners run better without them (LR does the opposite), (2) get rid of all the testing agencies, and (3) STOP with the big emphasis on the drugs, which says they do something that they don't.

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J.R. wrote:

Since top runners can run their best without drugs (EPO), then the same can be true for everyone else. The bottom line is that drugs don't fill any void not already available to the general population without any drug use.

Since these are both true...

Speculation.

Renato Canova wrote:

I think that, for controlling if top Kenyans are doped or not (forget Lombard, who is not in top 220 all time in the World : this is not the real Elite !), there is a very simple system :

WADA can carry out 10-12 OOC tests taking blood, in one year, for ALL the Kenyans who are in top 10 for every event, plus somebody else for Marathon, where times are not the only parameter.

These are 40 athletes, the best at the moment in Kenya. The total amount of tests at the end of one year can be 400, and, due to the continuity in the investigation, at the end of the season it's possible to have a TRUE PICTURE of all the parameters considered for the Biological Passport, with homogeneous data (all in altitude) that it's possible to compare with the data in competition at sea level.

This is not really a scientific test. You have no idea which of the runners aree doping, if any, and which ones are not. A double-blind study is really the only way you can test your hypothesis that EPO does not work on the best athletes. Of course such a test is very unlikely for both ethical reasons as well as funding.

Most science operates on inference from small sample sizes. In the research that has been done it is clear that EPO works (improves performance) on the subjects on which it was tested. I haven't really been convinced by your explanation of why this would be different, but regardless, it is an interesting hypothesis.

Of course I've never been convinced that the idea that EPO doesn't work would keep athletes from taking it. To take an example from another sport, I don't think Deer Antler spray has ever proven any efficacy, but that didn't stop Vijay Singh from taking it. Competitive athletes look for every edge they can find.

I have a theory too wrote:

Speculation.

To the contrary, everything about medical science is feeble speculation.

J.R. wrote:

I have a theory too wrote:

Speculation.

To the contrary, everything about medical science is feeble speculation.

Oh, you're one of those!

My proposal is not for showing my theory about EPO is correct, but for cleaning the widespread opinion that ALL THE BEST KENYAN are doped.

Of course, maybe that some other, weaker than the athletes in the list I wrote, can dope, but this is a different issue. In this case, people can start to think "if the bests are clean, why who is weaker does assume PEDs", that is the contrary of what happens today "why some athletes take EPO, if doesn't work ?".

I think that the only way for fighting EPO is to show that the number ones are the best without using.

Remember that the final performance depends on the balance of several factors. So, I don't have any doubt EPO can enhance the ability to transport oxygen, this is true for every human being. What I say is that IS USELESS FOR IMPROVING PERFORMANCES, of course if the training is proper, correct and with continuity, high volume and high intensity, because at the same time we reduce the ability of the body to work at its best in some other direction.

All my discussions are not if Kenyans dope or not (years ago of sure not, today there is evidence many of them dope), and are not if EPO works with Kenyans (how Kenyans is a special category...). The specific category are KENYANS TOP RUNNERS, who are different from normal Kenyans BECAUSE OF THEI TALENT AND THEIR TRAINING.

At the end, I can say what follows :

a) EPO can help athletes with LITTLE training, compared with their possibilities, to reach better aerobic level

b) The same athletes, increasing their training "clean" to the same level of their training "doped", achieve the same performances

c) Don't tell me doped athletes train more because with EPO can recover better and can avoid injuries. They recover better, compared with were able to do before, BECAUSE MENTALLY NEVER WANTED TO TRY THE SAME LEVEL OF TRAINING, THINKING NOT TO BE ABLE TO RECOVERY. So, it's not doping allowing athletes to recover better, but it's training, and you can become able to recover in very short time with proper training, when you use continuity, graduality and right methodology.

d) Using EPO, athletes can reach an aerobic level very close the maximum level they can reach with proper training, with little volume and intensity. When I see athletes running at high level and for long time very hard lactic sessions, continuing increasing their performances, they need to have a wide and strong aerobic base (otherwise in short time their shape goes down). For having this wide aerobic base, there are two ways only : or athletes run high volume of km, many of them very fast (Shaheen ran 37 km in Iten in 2 hr 01' in the month of July 2005, one week after winning steeple in Golden Gala (Rome) in 7'56", and 3 weeks before winning WCh), or they use EPO if their long and aerobic runs are 40' easy (for example, Brahim Boulami in Maroc).

A top athlete is like a Formula One : his engine is already at the top, and it's not possible to manipulate the engine for having some more HP. But, also, there is another factor : the winning car is the one which has more balance between the power of the engine, and the aerodinamic. If the engine is very strong, but the aerodinamic not good for certain circuits, the final result is not the best. In the balance of the human engine, when we speak about the top runners in the world, if we improve one function (for example, the ability to transport oxygen) but we make worse another correlated function (for example, the velocity of blood circulation), the final result is not ameliorative.

We must Always think that athletic performances depend on several combined factors, and to look at one of them as the exclusive source of every result is something not only limited, but also wrong.

Renato Canova wrote:

We must Always think that athletic performances depend on several combined factors, and to look at one of them as the exclusive source of every result is something not only limited, but also wrong.

How about that when people state that they feel that PEDs are *part* of the picture that we don't represent them as saying PEDs are *solely* responsible for the result, because such a statement is a misrepresented strawman of their point. Doing such makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the topic.

I have a theory too wrote:

J.R. wrote:

Since top runners can run their best without drugs (EPO), then the same can be true for everyone else. The bottom line is that drugs don't fill any void not already available to the general population without any drug use.

Since these are both true...

Speculation.

That would be false, not speculation. Look no further than Bjarne Riis.