Rosa Associates and Volare Sports suspended 6 months

noce wrote:

agip wrote:

The evidence in E African and US distance running simply isn't there. You're just guessing, connecting the dots, whatever. Which is fun, but it's not a great way to describe the world as it is.

The show-me-the-positives attitude was what led many people (including myself) to defend Lance Armstrong and US Postal throughout those TdF wins. Everyone knew there were dopers at the time, but it was viewed as a "European problem". Lance had special physiology...toughness...better work ethic...could beat the rest without doping. Sound familiar?

Lance Armstrong was not some outlier who ruined the reputation of his sport. His case revealed the true nature of doping professional sports. In particular: when the financial incentives are high, there IS pressure to dope, NO ONE is completely immune to this, and an athlete CAN evade detection. The pressure may come from managers/coaches, or it could be greed on the part of the athlete, or it could just be the athlete feels they must dope to remain competitive with other suspected dopers.

The testing evidence shows that most athletes stay clean. But some are not, and I see no reason to doubt that *some* of the "A-listers" are actually B-listers on drugs. It's happening. The arguments against this are weak and ad hoc. For example, the claim that someone with "special physiology" would not benefit from drugs (which does not even speak to whether the athlete is actually taking drugs) or the claim that a B-lister somehow can never become an A-lister by using drugs, or the idea that some groups of professional athletes are morally incorruptible (as if they could not see or do not care about the financial gain from running faster / extending a career), or my favorite, the idea that some super-elite athletes are too focused on training to understand what pills/injections they are taking (absolving them from responsibility?).

Another thing about "lack of evidence". What if the athlete is just not being tested? In this regard, the US and E Africa are very different. There are many out-of-competition tests performed in the US. In E Africa, not so much. It's a situation where we simply don't know what is going on. My default position in this case is "anything that can happen, will happen".

VAcoach wrote:

And if you read the entirety of my posts you will notice that I am not denying that there are cheaters. Financial gain has driven the cheaters as much as it has driven the non cheaters. What I am stating is that you cannot suspend entire management agencies because of the actions of a minority...yes an overwhelming minority.

You are free to believe what you like. But there has not been one piece of evidence presented on this thread that justifies the actions of AK.

VAcoach wrote:

You hit the nail on the head. This is government sanctioned extortion. AK is taking over the management and the winning percentage and I can guarantee you it will be more than the 15% the reputable agents charge. I work with Kenyans and several of their managers and I can attest that if there is any problem, it is with AK and not the management. AK will take 50% of the appearance fees, 50% of the winnings (at least) and then extort money from gerhard and gabriele in order to manage their athletes again. Kiplagat looks like he is pulling off one more heist before getting out of dodge. He has seen the frustration with his corruption grow, understands the mutiny athletes are planning against his regime and thinks it is time to out with a bang. kiplagat has done more to ruin Kenyan athletics than Stephanie Hightower ever could in the us.

It really upsets me reading the crap that is being posted here by people who have never been to kenya, don't know a Kenyan, and then assuming accusations are true just because they are made. These are people simply trying to feed their families. The only avenue they have open to them is running. They would trade places with the cubicle trolls that post here any day that sit and pass judgment. Does this need to survive lead some to cheat? Probably. Does this reflect the majority of Kenyan runners out there, hell no.

A four-part documentary that aired on Kenya Citizen TV, Poisoned Spikes, has alleged that performance-enhancing drugs are still widely available in Kenya. This is despite efforts made to clean up Kenyan athletics after a number of positive tests followed a 2012 documentary for Germany’s ARD, which highlighted the same issue. The Kenyan documentary followed a three-year investigation, and included undercover operations to buy performance enhancing drugs from the Eldoret/Kapsabet region, as well as in the capital, Nairobi. It also features interviews with Athletics Kenya, and athletes who have doped.

“In 2012 Athletics Kenya’s President, Isaiah Kiplagat, was claiming that the evidence presented in ARD German TV was not based on real facts”, German investigative journalist Hajo Seppelt told the Sports Integrity Initiative. “In 2015 it looks like the situation is even worse than we believed three years ago. That Athletics Kenya was not aware of this is not credible.”

VAcoach wrote:

I thank you for finding my central thesis. My assertion is that despite the presence of cheaters in the system, something I never denied, I do not believe the actions of AK were justified. I am objecting to the direction that this thread is taking using the actions of Isaiah Kiplagat as affirmation of one's previously existing conclusion that doping is rampant. I do not believe that doping is rampant, but neither side has rock solid "evidence" either way. We both are "connecting the dots." But that really is beside the point.

The point is dozens of innocent runners are being punished NOT because of doping, that was used as a pretext for the actions of AK. And since no one on this thread seems to know--or care--anything about the maleficence of Kiplagat and AK, they speculate about other things.

I am struggling to find and American analogy. Suspending the Yaknees because of A Rod didn't really seem to do the trick--maybe there are so many people that already hate the Yankees, that sounded about right. How about shutting down a Wal Mart putting hundreds out of work, because 4 employees were caught stealing? One of the reasons it is hard to develop an American analogy is because the actions of AK are so over the line, we really have no point of reference. Can we discuss this...you know...because the thread title is about the actions of AK?

agip wrote:

noce wrote:

The show-me-the-positives attitude was what led many people (including myself) to defend Lance Armstrong and US Postal throughout those TdF wins. Everyone knew there were dopers at the time, but it was viewed as a "European problem". Lance had special physiology...toughness...better work ethic...could beat the rest without doping. Sound familiar?

Lance Armstrong was not some outlier who ruined the reputation of his sport. His case revealed the true nature of doping professional sports. In particular: when the financial incentives are high, there IS pressure to dope, NO ONE is completely immune to this, and an athlete CAN evade detection. The pressure may come from managers/coaches, or it could be greed on the part of the athlete, or it could just be the athlete feels they must dope to remain competitive with other suspected dopers.

The testing evidence shows that most athletes stay clean. But some are not, and I see no reason to doubt that *some* of the "A-listers" are actually B-listers on drugs. It's happening. The arguments against this are weak and ad hoc. For example, the claim that someone with "special physiology" would not benefit from drugs (which does not even speak to whether the athlete is actually taking drugs) or the claim that a B-lister somehow can never become an A-lister by using drugs, or the idea that some groups of professional athletes are morally incorruptible (as if they could not see or do not care about the financial gain from running faster / extending a career), or my favorite, the idea that some super-elite athletes are too focused on training to understand what pills/injections they are taking (absolving them from responsibility?).

Another thing about "lack of evidence". What if the athlete is just not being tested? In this regard, the US and E Africa are very different. There are many out-of-competition tests performed in the US. In E Africa, not so much. It's a situation where we simply don't know what is going on. My default position in this case is "anything that can happen, will happen".

I largely agree with your post.

I am sure that there are Kenyan A listers on drugs.

But I think the major factor is culture rather than enforcement. For example, in US distance running there is a culture of anti-drugs. There have been no A list busts since regina- years and years and years.

In Kenya clearly there is a less clean culture. There have obviously been a ton of busts. But they all seem to be B or C listers trying to get to the top level, or some doctor-prescribed medicine that broke the rules for some lame non-ped purpose.

And then there are Russia and Turkey, where clearly distance running and doping are intertwined and one simply does not run without drugs.

So the battle is whether Kenya will turn into Russia/Turkey or if it will be like the US.

That's the fight we are dead in the middle of - I think the tide is going toward Russia, but it ain't over.

If 3-4 A listers get busted, I will write off Kenya. But not until then.

VAcoach wrote:

I thank you for finding my central thesis. My assertion is that despite the presence of cheaters in the system, something I never denied, I do not believe the actions of AK were justified. I am objecting to the direction that this thread is taking using the actions of Isaiah Kiplagat as affirmation of one's previously existing conclusion that doping is rampant. I do not believe that doping is rampant, but neither side has rock solid "evidence" either way. We both are "connecting the dots." But that really is beside the point.

The point is dozens of innocent runners are being punished NOT because of doping, that was used as a pretext for the actions of AK. And since no one on this thread seems to know--or care--anything about the maleficence of Kiplagat and AK, they speculate about other things.

I am struggling to find and American analogy. Suspending the Yaknees because of A Rod didn't really seem to do the trick--maybe there are so many people that already hate the Yankees, that sounded about right. How about shutting down a Wal Mart putting hundreds out of work, because 4 employees were caught stealing? One of the reasons it is hard to develop an American analogy is because the actions of AK are so over the line, we really have no point of reference. Can we discuss this...you know...because the thread title is about the actions of AK?

noce wrote:

agip wrote:

I largely agree with your post.

I am sure that there are Kenyan A listers on drugs.

But I think the major factor is culture rather than enforcement. For example, in US distance running there is a culture of anti-drugs. There have been no A list busts since regina- years and years and years.

In Kenya clearly there is a less clean culture. There have obviously been a ton of busts. But they all seem to be B or C listers trying to get to the top level, or some doctor-prescribed medicine that broke the rules for some lame non-ped purpose.

And then there are Russia and Turkey, where clearly distance running and doping are intertwined and one simply does not run without drugs.

So the battle is whether Kenya will turn into Russia/Turkey or if it will be like the US.

That's the fight we are dead in the middle of - I think the tide is going toward Russia, but it ain't over.

If 3-4 A listers get busted, I will write off Kenya. But not until then.

I can't blame you for wanting to think that anti-doping culture can prevail over financial incentives and pressures. I wish it were true. But there is a simpler explanation for what's going on in the US. In the US, there is very little reward associated with being a professional distance runner - even when doping. In fact, there is a high opportunity cost associated with dedicating your early life to training. This is probably why we don't see LOTS of doping going on. I'm not saying US running is squeaky clean, but we don't have runners on steroids/EPO coming out of the woodwork, because in the US this is not a pathway to stardom and financial security. (Except for guys like Hesch, who are stars in their own minds)

In E Africa of course there are no guarantees of success, but success is potentially life-changing. If in addition the testing is inadequate, and the governing organizations look the other way or are incompetent, then you have just the right conditions for rampant doping.

The proper response IMO is not to kick out managers or blame supposed "bad apple" doctors. That's a band aid fix. A legitimate and transparent OOC testing program needs to be in place. An accredited lab in the northern half of Africa or sufficient funds to fly lots of samples to Switzerland, a way to see which athletes have been tested, and how many times etc.