Hicham El Guerrouj is oficially clean!!! His frozen urine samples can't be retested anymore!!!

Smoke Fire wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

2. How you can see, the article regards a fact happened in 2005. But EG retired in 2004.... so sometimes may be better to learn to read, considering every point. Of sure, you don't have the attitude for becoming a good lawyer !

I can read this:

"February 2005

•Having fallen behind in his preparations for the summer season, double olympic champion Hicham El Guerrouj flew to the United States mid-february for a 45-day training camp in Albuquerque."

http://www.africathle.com/gb/perso/news/news05.html

The Guardian article is dated the 26 March 2005:

"Last week Radcliffe had dinner with Hicham El Guerrouj ...in Albuquerque"

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2005/mar/26/athletics.duncanmackay

So Mr Judge and Jury, which source do I believe, those above or you?

You miss the point. If you're trying to link El G to doping, you should try to come up with something earlier than 2005, shouldn't you?

roughly 15 seconds gain for 5000m

and 30 seconds for 10000m

baumann and tergat, East african and European

it works the same way for both

I repeat for thousands times :

I had in my Group some athlete (like Shaheen WR holder of steeple, Nicholas Kemboi 26'30", Ahmed Hassan 26'38", Moses Mosop 12'54" / 26'49" / WR of 25000 / 30000m / 2:03:06, John Korir and Mark Bett 26'52", James Kwalia 7'28" / 12'54") only for remaining in the field of the athletes able running fast in that period, who I know very well were completely clean.

How I know this ? Because we lived together, sometimes in the same room, in St. Moritz during summer 2002 / 2003, and, in the case of Shaheen, many times in different parts of the World.

Apart the case of Shaheen (arguably one of the greatest talent ever in middle distances), the other were top class athletes, but nobody a "phenomen" as, for example, Gebrselassie or Bekele.

So, for what reasons I have to think Haile, or Kenenisa, had to use some doping for running a little bit faster than, for example, Nicholas Kemboi ?

I repeat again : I have knowledge about the fact athletes with top talent can run faster than all people in LR think. And I can say they could run still faster, if had more professionalism and continuity in their training (this is the case of Nicholas Kemboi and Mark Bett, for example).

The fact is that here nobody has the clue that athletes of "medium level" can run, completely clean, about 13' / 13'05" and 27' / 27'20" with proper training and, more important, WITH PROPER MENTALITY.

Mentality that of course cannot have, if everybody thinks not possible running under 27' or 13' or 2:06 without some doping.

so a 'clean' bekele and geb were able to trounce all opposition 'clean'

over a period of 15 years

when there was either no test for epo at all,or it was easy to fool the test and epo use was widespread and has significant performance benefit in endurance events

i have a hard time buying that theory myself..

no disrespect renato

LOL!! wrote:

when there was either no test for epo at all,or it was easy to fool the test and epo use was widespread and has significant performance benefit in endurance events

How significant? How many seconds per 10 km does EPO help an elite athlete? Sources?

Hardloper wrote:

You miss the point. If you're trying to link El G to doping, you should try to come up with something earlier than 2005, shouldn't you?

Read again the IAAF article in 2005 about El Guerrouj scratching for WC's.

He was training in 2005 for Helsinki. He suffered some setbacks in June and finally he did not participate. But he said that his next goal was the 2006 indoor season.

So, he was not retired after Athens 2004. He was ellegible for testing purposes.

How significant? How many seconds per 10 km does EPO help an elite athlete?

i already told you

3 seconds for 1500m

6 seconds for 3000

12-15 for 5000

30 for 10,000

they're rough estimates based on noted performance gain

tergat dropped about 30 sec for 10,000 in 1997 when he went on epo

"I have more knowledge of all the LR posters about where clean athletes can arrive"

"I have knowledge about the fact athletes with top talent can run faster than all people in LR think."

Because Renato is the only one in step on parade, because he knows everybody who posts on letsrun personally, who they are, what they do, what athletes they work with, and how.

Renato is about fantasy and ego. He's having a great time. If you find what he does, how he does it, or the results of what he does, entertaining, then good for you.

Renato comes from a long line of Italian showmen, which lineage is documented back many hundreds of years. He's not the first, he certainly won't be the last, and he's certainly not in any way original.

And he certainly doesn't have any fantastic original information, as they always claim. You have to remember that Europe in general, and Italy in particular, is an old culture--many things are sewn up. It is very difficult to differentiate yourself, to make anybody think that you are special, and worth particular consideration.

Enter "the character". There are all types of "characters" that have developed, along with much satire and lampoon thereof throughout the years. My favorite satire is probably Daumier's sculptures of various French characters.

Canova's "character" is neither new, nor original, but it is proven. It is a time-honored way to sell yourself into a closed nepotistic market.

Brian red mamba Scalabrine wrote:

Hardloper wrote:

You miss the point. If you're trying to link El G to doping, you should try to come up with something earlier than 2005, shouldn't you?

Read again the IAAF article in 2005 about El Guerrouj scratching for WC's.

He was training in 2005 for Helsinki. He suffered some setbacks in June and finally he did not participate. But he said that his next goal was the 2006 indoor season.

So, he was not retired after Athens 2004. He was ellegible for testing purposes.

But if you wanted to make an argument that he ever doped while competing, or running any fast times, or doing anything that anyone cares about, surely you would want to come up with something before 2005?

LOL!! wrote:

How significant? How many seconds per 10 km does EPO help an elite athlete?

i already told you

3 seconds for 1500m

6 seconds for 3000

12-15 for 5000

30 for 10,000

they're rough estimates based on noted performance gain

tergat dropped about 30 sec for 10,000 in 1997 when he went on epo

Right, and now for the "source" part?

Renato Canova wrote:

Both the articles speak about FEBRUARY 2005.

The last competition of EG in his life was the final in Olympic Games 2004, so 6 months before.

Also if he was not yet officially retired, his attempt to find again the right motivation didn't have success.

So, the two articles speak about the SAME DATE.

Where do you find some conflict between the two sources ?

Huh, who's confused? I don't "find some conflict between the two sources" I know both articles were from the same period, that was the reason for posting the africathle.com one, as another source to show he was in Albuquerque over that period and not retired (which El-G announced on 22 May 2006) as stated by you:

"How you can see, the article regards a fact happened in 2005. But EG retired in 2004.... so sometimes may be better to learn to read, considering every point. Of sure, you don't have the attitude for becoming a good lawyer!"

As I said previously: "So Mr Judge and Jury, which source do I believe, those above or you?"

Suggest you follow your own advice regarding "fact" and "so sometimes may be better to learn to read, considering every point".

Oh yeah, and you'll never make a good lawyer.

Hardloper wrote:

You miss the point. If you're trying to link El G to doping, you should try to come up with something earlier than 2005, shouldn't you?

Why?, he:

"Having fallen behind in his preparations for the summer season, double olympic champion Hicham El Guerrouj flew to the United States mid-february for a 45-day training camp in Albuquerque."

"El Guerrouj also left it late before deciding to withdraw from the 2005 world championships", (various sources).

Pretty obvious link I would have thought, preparing for a European track season and world champs. Who's missing the point?

Smoke Fire says about Renato: "Oh yeah, and you'll never make a good lawyer."

Smoke Fire knows absolutely nothing about the Italian "legal" system, and Italian "lawyers".

From what I know, Renato could in fact make an excellent Italian "lawyer".

And I know a lot. Our system is not like you think. REAL Canova seems to know a bit, but does not know how hard it is in Italy right now. 2 coaches I know want to set up camps in Arizona and will do just about anything to get out of Italy.

Hardloper wrote:

But if you wanted to make an argument that he ever doped while competing, or running any fast times, or doing anything that anyone cares about, surely you would want to come up with something before 2005?

You're right, but Lance showed us all how difficult that is.

Rigorous Maximus wrote:

Smoke Fire says about Renato: "Oh yeah, and you'll never make a good lawyer."

Smoke Fire knows absolutely nothing about the Italian "legal" system, and Italian "lawyers".

From what I know, Renato could in fact make an excellent Italian "lawyer".

Here's one:

Smoke Fire wrote:

Pretty obvious link I would have thought, preparing for a European track season and world champs. Who's missing the point?

You are, still.

Even if (big if) you prove he doped in 2005, so what? Who cares? He didn't run a single race! We want to know what he was doing when he ran 3:26, 3:43, three medals...

Smoke Fire wrote:

You're right, but Lance showed us all how difficult that is.

No, but you're showing this evidence thing is very difficult for YOU...

Hardloper wrote:

But if you wanted to make an argument that he ever doped while competing, or running any fast times, or doing anything that anyone cares about, surely you would want to come up with something before 2005?

No, because the statue of limitations of 2013 retesting, begins in 2005. Last year was the last chance of retesting the samples of Athens 2004.

If el G doped in early 2005, attempting a comeback (heck, he was reportedly in Albuquerque, NM) this year was the last chance.

I'm positive that El Guerrouj was tested until 2005, not 2004. See the Shawn Crawford positive. He was not competing at all, but he was not "officialy" retired.

I don't want to promote myself. But is a fact that, among all posters of LR, nobody coached athletes for WR, or World Champions, so nobody can have the real clue about what a top athlete can do.

People like you can write what you "suppose", according to your sick mentality, but never you can KNOW for direct experience.

Therefore, if you believe in the REAL experience of somebody else, ok. If you don't believe, this is up to you.

About the lawyer, your example is so stupid that everybody with some brain can only think of you as an idiot.