Basic Training Principles--New booklet on Lydiard training for high school runners

systems you are off your rocker. Even if you WERE able to substantially shift your fuel sources during high intensity running from glycogen to fats (you can't), you would still produce large amounts of acid and lactate. Acetyl CoA enters the citric acid cycle very similar to how pyruvate does.

You are missing the point. The more glycogen we have, the more lactate we produce at any given pace. If you try to run an 800m race when you are fully carbo loaded, you will hurt like hell and run several seconds slower than your potential.

Coe didn't eat for 5 hours before a major race. Why do you think he did that?

rekrunner wrote:

systems,

I'm not sure you if I'm following you when you talk about "maximum buffer capacity", but you also said something earlier about not "lowering blood pH on a regular basis".

In a Lydiard context, anaerobic training, lowering blood pH, and building metabolic buffers to the negative effects of racing, only lasts for a limited time, like 3-4 weeks. This develops a generic anaerobic resistance capability, that might have weakened or disappeared during an extended "aerobic only" phase.

Then it's finished, and you move on to things like race simulations/time trials, wind-sprints (like hard, yet aerobic, intervals), and the trusty long run. This phase can be something like 4-6 weeks, so I think any of your concerns about "running to maximum buffer capacity", or "lowering your blood pH on a regular basis" shouldn't be a problem during the real racing.

Good point rekrunner. But why include a pH lowering phase of training for 3-4 weeks anyway, and why completely exclude such training at any time during the year? Hills will do that for you, and no serious runner or coach would tell us to avoid hills for several weeks would they?

To reinforce my simple hypothesis, the more glycogen we have stored, the lower our blood pH will be for any given pace, thus making us less efficient. As we use up that glycogen, muscle tension increases and we get more spring from our stride, and the shorter the race the more we need that spring. Think about how this related to every training and racing day you ever had in your life, and you will begin to grasp what I am saying. Then consider how to run fast in a Marathon, we need the optimum balance between a springy stride and glycogen conservation. Then think about how Usain Bolt only needs a very tiny amount of glycogen to run 100m in 9.58 seconds.

Whatever training and racing we do and whatever else we do during that day, glycogen storage is going up and down by hundreds of grams per day.

I will reiterate: you are off your rocker. Intramuscular proton accumulation (and drop in pH) has everything to do with ATP cleavage and glycolytic ATP regeneration and almost nothing to do with lactate production. In fact, producing more lactate is a GOOD THING, as it retards acidosis. If the energy to run doesn't come from glycogen, where does it come from? Fat? As I outlined in my previous post, that has no proton sparing effect, and is hardly utilized in a short race like the 800 anyways. Blood glucose? Using glucose directly in glycolysis actually releases an additional proton vs. using glycogen. Phosphocreatine? PCr stores are empty after 6-8 seconds. Coe didn't eat for five hours before his races because he was a nutter...like you.

You're still missing the point. In an 800m race we always produce more lactate than we use during the race. The more glycogen we have stored, the more lactate we wil produce at any given pace. And of no fat is used in such a short distance, or in any track race. Why even bring that up? Because you are completely missing the point.

Yes, using blood glucose directly releases an additional proton vs. using glycogen. Now there you have a very important point which I alluded to previously. The more efficiently we can switch from one motor unit to another, the less reliance an acidifying blood glucose, when the muscle glycogen runs out.

Coe was a nutter like me? I can only take that as a compliment, but I didn't quite run 1.41

That's really the whole linear versus non-linear periodization debate. Why do 3-4 weeks anaerobic training? Exactly because you avoided these during aerobic base building. Why avoid these workouts during base building? Because this is the time is for rejuvenating and rebuilding after an intense racing season. Presumably it's the off-season, and you can afford a time where you are less sharp, and it's also mentally refreshing to take a break. This is the linear approach, that Lydiard adopted. Of course there are other approaches where you could pull these kinds of anearobic sessions forward, doing them in some form year round.I've given some thought about your glycogen/acidosis hypothesis. It seems to be just another way of saying we need a high efficiency/economy (by working on good running form), and we need to produce energy from carbohydrates "aerobically" rather than "anaerobically". Maybe I'm missing something and you can help me understand the difference.Also, how do I reconcile this with some of Canova's training? Some years back, he described getting his athletes to obtain a high MAXLASS capability. Whereas "Western" athletes might only have steady states around 4-6 mmols, his "Kenyan" athletes train to improve and obtain much higher steady states around 8 mmols.More recently, the new wave of recent marathon performances seem characterized by a prolonged burst of speed, for a few kilometers, somewhere between 25-30km in the race, breaking away from the rest of the pack, and breaking any challengers. He talks about training to change the fuel of their diesel engines. Wouldn't this burst produce a higher level of lactate and acidosis, then the "steady paced" challenger, favoring the one who maintained his pace? If so, how is it possible to win, and set world records, with this kind of strategy?

Thanks again rekrunner. You make good points about the Lydiard periodization. I suppose also that during his aerobic phase, there is enough high end aerobic work to keep the nervous system stimulated enough to facilitate some quality mileage.

Renato is wrong. Anyone, with decent pace regardless of 'race' (I hate that word) can produce a high Maximal lactate steady state. His hypothesis about Kenyans having better lactate transport is nonsense. Why would a sub 13 5000m runner have better lactate transport than a well trained but much slower runner? He is actually implying that Kenyans are less efficient, not more efficient. The superior pace of the faster runners has much more to do with the abilit to maintain a high muscle tension for long periods, giving a much more economical use of fuel, helping to maintain high paces for long distances.

Putting aside Kenyans versus the West, I was more interested in the fact that a high steady state is something important to develop in training, and apparently something important to call upon during world record class marathon performances. In order to win races, and set world records, producing high levels of lactate and accepting the corresponding acidosis seems like an important thing to be able to do.

Regarding Lydiard training, and things included in the aerobic phase, last week "hateitorloveit" posted a link to Dick Quax talking about training, from 1984:

http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-right-track-1984

I found this particularly interesting for a couple of reasons:

- Dick Quax included aerobic interval training in the base building phase every week

- He talks about the importance of concepts like progression of training, specificity, and training individualization in a Lydiard approach to training

"hateitorloveit" also posted another link, but I haven't seen it yet:

http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/on-the-run-1979

rekrunner wrote:

Putting aside Kenyans versus the West, I was more interested in the fact that a high steady state is something important to develop in training, and apparently something important to call upon during world record class marathon performances. In order to win races, and set world records, producing high levels of lactate and accepting the corresponding acidosis seems like an important thing to be able to do.

But it's not true. It's impossible for a Marathon runner to run with a the kind of lactate levels Renato was talking about, that would require much higher glycgen storage, which is impossible.

For the track distances, higher lactate levels than normal would mean less efficient running. We have all done this and we didn't run awesome times and it didn't require awesome training. Better runners use less lactate for the same pace. Just look at how much spring Snell, Quax and Walker have in their stride, that is a high elastic energy return which saves energy and oxygen consumption. It's not because they are massively aerobically developed, they have normal aerobic development. But it was good to watch then running through the Waitekeres hill though. Thanks for the link.

What you are talking about is mechanical efficiency which is something Lydiard clearly developed in his athletes. Furthermore, the more time you can spend training with correct mechanics the greater the transfer into the race/test situation. Running at the wrong paces for yourself will ensure the mechanical system isn't trained correctly and isn't available when needed, in an end of race situation.

I agree with you systems in that you want to avoid acidosis almost all of the time, except for that period when you need adjust to it, so it doesn't bite you during a race, which is what i already said previously.

to rekrunner --- This steady state is what i believe Lydiard tuned his athletes into for the entire marathon preparation phase. Not the MAXLASS level but just underneath.

Si Milano, mechanical efficiency. But I don't agree with you when you say "you want to avoid acidosis almost all of the time, except for that period when you need adjust to it, so it doesn't bite you during a race" because the point I am making is that acidosis is worst when we try to run fast whilst carbo-loaded. Think about how nervous you are for hours before a big track race? That nervous energy uses up a lot of glycogen. Then you do your warm up and by the time you line up to race, you should hopefully be at the ideal level of glycogen storage for your level of conditioning.

Lactate steady state is a very confusing issue. Once again, it depends on glycogen storage. The more glycogen you have stored the higher you maximal lactate steady state will be.

What we really should be discussing is this issue of ventilatory threshold. How should we train to control our breathing and minimize acidosis in races?

systems wrote:

Si Milano, mechanical efficiency. But I don't agree with you when you say "you want to avoid acidosis almost all of the time, except for that period when you need adjust to it, so it doesn't bite you during a race" because the point I am making is that acidosis is worst when we try to run fast whilst carbo-loaded. Think about how nervous you are for hours before a big track race? That nervous energy uses up a lot of glycogen. Then you do your warm up and by the time you line up to race, you should hopefully be at the ideal level of glycogen storage for your level of conditioning.

I don't know about this idea that different glycogen stores affect the state of our energy systems, but it makes sense. There must be peer reviewed studies on it. Still, i haven't noticed myself. I tend to keep a steady supply of food when i compete so i always have enough energy.

What i'm talking about is that the race requires a period of coping with acidosis, so therefore training must prepare one for that. So training whist in an acidotic state is necessary.

What isn't necessary is getting totally out of breath during it.

So lets define what out of breath means. Because if we can avoid it we can train more efficiently, whether focusing on our endurance capacity or our speed-endurance.

Lactate steady state is a very confusing issue. Once again, it depends on glycogen storage. The more glycogen you have stored the higher you maximal lactate steady state will be.

What we really should be discussing is this issue of ventilatory threshold. How should we train to control our breathing and minimize acidosis in races?[/quote]

Getting out of breath in science terms is defined as crossing the Ventilatory threshold, caused by the buffering of acidosis. We breath out more carbon dioxide than normal.

I think that the best performances avoid this excess CO2 production, and I think it's related not just to training, but to glycogen storage. Even in the Marathon, where carbo loading is essential, we do our most efficient running in the later stages, just before we start to become noticeably glycogen depleted.

I think this effect of increased efficiency applies to short races too.

OK but this is an approximation relative to loss of breath control is it not? One individual will lose control prior whilst another will lose control after it. Also one individual will vary day to day. Or even during a race as you are asserting.

I'm wondering if this change in chemical efficiency during a race is factual, in that it has been studied? If it has then i wonder if there is another explanation as to why there is a change in efficiency during a race. Warmup as you mentioned but again, it is part of the role of being a racer to know how to warm up fully prior to a race. An athlete shouldn't be relying on warming into a race if it's an important one. If what you assert is true, then there is a range of glycogen storage that is ideal for each race distance. I've never heard of this before.

Yet i agree the best performances are often done without excessive acidocis. However, not many of those cases, if any, would have been done in a tight race which tested ones limits.

I wouldn't want to be 50m from the, line neck and neck with someone, who wasn't going to lose form because he had been in this exact situation in training a number of times recently. Not learning to tolerate excessive acidocis is like tying one hand behind your back in my view.

I think this effect of increased efficiency applies to short races too.[/quote]

systems wrote:

Getting out of breath in science terms is defined as crossing the Ventilatory threshold, caused by the buffering of acidosis. We breath out more carbon dioxide than normal.

I think that the best performances avoid this excess CO2 production, and I think it's related not just to training, but to glycogen storage. Even in the Marathon, where carbo loading is essential, we do our most efficient running in the later stages, just before we start to become noticeably glycogen depleted.

I think this effect of increased efficiency applies to short races too.

Systems, I'm not yet quite up to speed on the physiological manifestations of what you're stating here in regards to glycogen storage, but from my own experience what you're saying is dead on.

My runs when done with an apparent decline in glycogen storage seem far and away better than other runs where I'm topped up. Also, I typically get to a point in longer runs where I seem like I can essentially hold my breath and maintain the same pace as my breathing has become so relaxed and controlled as compared to earlier.

Very interesting insight, here.

Systems,

Interesting. Sometimes I have found myself flying in a hour training run when I haven't eaten much and have been really flat when all carbed up and thought it rather strange and attributed it to other stuff

In a nutshell what are you saying?

How is the best way to prepare for an 800/mile race according to your philosophy?

When and what to eat?

How does Snell's "springiness" confirm your argument? How do you know what he did in preparation.

Snell's aerobic power average (in international terms) and his 3 mile efforts and 800 m repeats were not really that quick? Perhaps, that marathon he ran wasn't really that impressive.

Comment from HRE?

Thanks

systems,

Sorry but this is a single response to your last few posts, with multiple questions for the purpose of understanding and advancing your discussion. You are throwing out a few new ideas here, and I'm not sure if these are personal creative hypotheses, or if there is something more substantial behind these ideas.

I asked before, but it seems to me you are just restating "we need a high efficiency/economy (by working on good running form), and we need to produce energy from carbohydrates "aerobically" rather than "anaerobically"". Are you saying something else?

When it comes to choosing to train muscle (and tendon) elasticity, aerobic development, and anaerobic training, I don't see any of these as exclusive. For me it's not an either/or thing, but you need them all to some degree.

My understanding is, there are two ways to burn glycogen: "aerobically" and "anaerobically". I also understood that the decision of which path is chosen with which probability, was a function of intensity, rather than a function of the level of glycogen storage. In the morning, before breakfast, my glycogen storage is quite low. I don't recall huge breakthrough performances on these "fasted" but not "fast" morning runs. I'm sure acidosis is low, but so is the intensity, and speed. What is your logic that links acidosis and lactate steady state levels to the current state of glycogen storage?

And I'm wondering what exactly you mean when you say efficiency? In a scientific sense, efficiency is about how much gross energy your body produces (usually estimated by measuring oxygen consumption), and what percentage of that energy ends up as net energy at your feet, propelling you forward. Related to "efficiency" is "economy", a measure the actual running speed versus oxygen consumption. When you talk about increased efficiency just before glycogen depletion, do you mean this kind of efficiency -- that more of the energy produced by oxygen ends up at your feet as your glycogen stores get lower? Maybe the changes in perceived efficiency or economy is really due to the associated weight loss of 1 or 2 kilos. How are you linking it to the current level of glycogen storage?

You asked how to reduce acidosis in racing? I think the answer is by increasing acidosis in training, for a limited period of time, so as to trigger adaptations to minimize and/or delay the negative effects of this new state of high lactate levels, and high acidosis, and a comprehensive low blood pH.

Maybe my question about marathons is more clear with an example. I didn't mean that it is possible during a marathon to reach the high levels actually measured by Renato during interval training. Maybe it's more clear by looking at London 2012 marathon. Between kms 20-25, Wilson Kipsang dropped a 14:09 for 5km, the fastest 5K split ever achieved in a marathon. After that, he still managed to finish the remaining 17K at a respectable marathon pace. This decisive mid-race surge split the pack apart, and destroyed Kirui, the only one brave enough to meet the challenge. So what is the mechanism that allowed Kipsang to accelerate, breaking all of his challengers, without breaking himself?

Contrast this to Boston 2012, where the front runners paid the price for a mid-race surge, rewarding the more sensibly paced Wesley Korir, (and also Jason Hartman).

I would expect from conventional wisdom, that more races are like Boston 2012, rewarding the even paced runner, but that seems to be the rare exception in the last few years. Ever since Wanjiru, most of the major marathons use a mid-race surge strategy to destroy the pack, and still produce world record threatening times. That for me is the interesting question -- why?

Thanks in advance for any clarifications.

My eyes glaze over really quickly when these discussions turn as "physiological" as this one has so I may be off the mark with this response. I haven't been following very closely.

All of my best marathons came after having a donut and a cup of tea about two hours before the race. Lydiard always favored toast with honey but honey makes me gag. The donut seemed a good replacement. The tea was to clean out the innards. More food made me feel sluggish and not eating seemed to leave me struggling around 18-20 miles. I'd often feel starved and weak. Donuts seemed to "stick to my ribs" without making me feel bloated or sluggish. Lydiard liked honey and toast for the same reason.None of Lydiard's guys had any unusual dietary practices in normal life.

Snell did struggle in the late stages of that marathon but that's probably due to having gone out harder than he should have. It wasn't really a race for him, Lydiard had all of his guys run marathons as part of their training and that's all Snell was doing there. The time, in case you don't know, was 2:41. He played in a cricket match afterward and then went to a party where he met his first wife.

I remember that when Shorter was in his prime in Gainesville stories would come out about monster training sessions he'd done. That sort of thing didn't seem to happen with Lydiard's guys. Part of that was because the facilities they used were not very good. A lot of their repeat work and time trials was done on roads in the dark because it was winter in the Southern Hemisphere and the tracks were often under water, or if the tracks were usable they were still muddy and slow. But another reason was that Lydiard did not believe in racing your interval sessions ("train, don't strain") and controlled the effort his guys used. Banging out ten quarter mile repeats in an average of 56 would not have impressed him if he thought you were really hammering yourself to get those times. His idea was always just to get yourself into oxygen debt for a while and then stop so you didn't often get really "impressive" sessions.

I don't know if any of that really gets to what you were hoping I'd comment on, but for all I know it did.

I don't think we need to learn how to tolerate excessive acidosis, because it's a basic survival mechanism. We just need to practice running fast and long, progressing to racing. That will give us all the pace judgement we need. And really, when we battle down the home straight, it's a combination of natural staying power, determination and pace judgement. We are all slowing down at the end of a long sprint, it's a question of who slows down the least.