Renato Canova - Arthur Lydiard Coaches Roundtable

One thing is these stats 'could' be skewed of we look at any event the athlete chooses to take up.

This is why when i first stated this about Canova training i made sure it was referring to their original events.

For whilst it is admirable to continue an athletes career over time with longer and longer distances, it always begs the question why did that athlete stop improving at their original (usually shorter) distances.

at the risk of derailing my point i just have to show you this special article just shown to me by the author

http://forums.glenhuntly-athletics.com/index.php?showtopic=467

gypsy wrote:

One thing is these stats 'could' be skewed of we look at any event the athlete chooses to take up.

This is why when i first stated this about Canova training i made sure it was referring to their original events.

For whilst it is admirable to continue an athletes career over time with longer and longer distances, it always begs the question why did that athlete stop improving at their original (usually shorter) distances.

gypsy - you are either a first class troll or an idiot of the highest order!

I have noted that my question has not been answered. How many Waiatarua's have you run JR ?.

gypsy wrote:

For whilst it is admirable to continue an athletes career over time with longer and longer distances, it always begs the question why did that athlete stop improving at their original (usually shorter) distances.

How many women sub 2:20 marathoners have you coached?

Gypsy, at the risk of derailing your point, I give you two examples with my Italian athletes (not Kenyans !) of how I'm use to kill my athletes :

Maura Viceconte (born in 1967) :

1986 : 10’11”8 (3000) –

1988 : 34’43” (10000) –

1994 : 2:35:15 (Mar) –

1995 : 2:29:11 –

1997 : 2:28:16 –

1998 : Bronze Medal European Ch. (2:28:31) –

1999 : 32:05:44 (10000) / 2:29:36 –

2000 : 2:23:47 (NR) / 31:05:57 (NR) –

2001 : 1:09:18 (HM) / 2:26:31 (Mar) –

2002 : 32:12.66 (10000)

Maria Curatolo (born in 1963)

1983 : 35:22 (10000) / 2:50:21 (Mar)

1984 : 34:46 (10000) / 2:36:05

1985 : 34:12 (10000) / 2:40:10

1986 : 32:04:34 (10000) / 10th in ECh

1987 : 4:18.56 (1500) / 8:53.55 (3000) / 2:30:15 – Bronze in WCh 10km

1988 : 2:30:14 – 8th in OG – 10th in WCCCh

1989-1992 : Out for car accident

1993 : 2:36:33

1994 : 2:30:14 (Silver in ECh)

1995 : 2:31:10

1996 : OG in Atlanta

1997 : NC Cross

Of course I can give you several example about Kenyans, and I'll give the next time. Only for demonstrating you speak without knowing anything.

gypsy wrote:

For whilst it is admirable to continue an athletes career over time with longer and longer distances, it always begs the question why did that athlete stop improving at their original (usually shorter) distances.

are you really this dense? the money is in the marathon, so they're moving up earlier...

gypsy wrote:

One thing is these stats 'could' be skewed of we look at any event the athlete chooses to take up.

This is why when i first stated this about Canova training i made sure it was referring to their original events.

For whilst it is admirable to continue an athletes career over time with longer and longer distances, it always begs the question why did that athlete stop improving at their original (usually shorter) distances.

You specifically said that he destroys athletes after 3 years. How is a destroyed athlete able to run well at longer distances?

Thanks for the link, Gypsy.Renato, can you take a look and give your thoughts on the marathon training program please?HOw does it compare to your FUNDAMENTAL training phase?

gypsy wrote:

at the risk of derailing my point i just have to show you this special article just shown to me by the author

http://forums.glenhuntly-athletics.com/index.php?showtopic=467

Of course you can't give those examples because they don't exist. And now i am really unimpressed with you and your deceptive behaviour.

I remind you and everyone else who has been involved of the thread titled Lydiard Imitations which this exact matter was previously discussed, between you and I. I put this assertion to you that none of your athletes had ever improved beyond three years in their intial event. You replied with an incorrect example. Your confusion was that the sole example you provided actually stopped improving in her initial event at three years and yet you managed to get improvement in marathon many years later. You provided a false example then and it was your only example.

So i go to find this example in that thread and i find that you have requested that many of your posts in that thread be removed, and they have been removed. Specifically the entires where i proved to you and letsrun you can't improve athletes beyond this third season. So where are these posts and why did you request them to be removed.

As for your two examples above, you had to dig into ancient history, you failed to state when you actually coached them, and neither are good examples are they. Where are the Kenyans? Where are the atheltes who ran personal bests in their main events are 4 or 5 or 6 years? Absent.

There can be three reasons for this fact.

1. your system is fundamentally flawed

2. you implement your system incorrectly

3. something is wrong with these 100s of athletes you say you have coached.

Which is it?

marathon girl wrote:

Thanks for the link, Gypsy.

Thanks go to Tony Wilson for the many hours of collating that info and then presenting it in such a useful format. I'ts pretty useful ey!

Azaleas wrote:

You specifically said that he destroys athletes after 3 years. How is a destroyed athlete able to run well at longer distances?

I guess we need to look at what i meant by destroyed and the fact it is too strong for what i'm seeing.

What essentially happens in these situations is there are two corresponding forces occurring in the athlete as they go through the training process.

One force is the positive effect of all of that training and how in what pattern it is in. Athletes get fitter and stronger both mentally and physically and they come to learn their event and also refine performance that way.

The opposing force involves the de-training effect that an athlete undergoes when he is following a training program that isn't holistically balanced. A coach may retard the progress of an athlete through incorrect approaches. I see this as de-training an athletes naturalness. Usually it takes the form of a progressively compressed posture which progressively becomes less and less springy. Craig Mottram and Benita Johnson jump to mind. These are perfect examples of athletes who received a crushed posture from their training approach. So whilst they may have gotten fitter/stronger over the same timeframe they also lost something else which is even more important, their natural athleticism. I checked out Nic Bideau's approach. heavily influenced by Lydiard it is, however, whilst Nic cottoned on to a big part of Lydairdism, he missed some of the other important but less well revealed aspects of Lydairdism. So he didn't get the whole picture. And the part he missed is how to train an athlete hard enough to reach their potential but balance the training so their posture remains in its state of natural relaxedness.

This is very hard to do.

Do you have some kind of personal problem with the guy?

rekrunner wrote:

I don't recall seeing a numbers all that often, and I'm not sure why you cling to 3 years.

I'm not sure either but there is a memory of reading Canova saying this somewhere, that after three years the aerobic capacity work is pretty much done with.

Don't be confused with specific things related to VO2max changes (e.g. mitochondria and capillary density), where these single effects max out quite quickly. (Maybe 1-2 years, more or less).

I don't think i was but this is an interesting an possibly unresolved point in itself. Taking these two things, mitochondrial and capillary density - i have two questions

1. How do we know that they stop increasing after a few years of training?

2. This is more of a statement. Ultimately, i don't think there is an end point to anything, so to say there is an end point to the development of these two factors seems difficult to swallow. If instead we can say the rate of development slows dramatically at some point then it is easier to swallow.

If this final point is allowed to stand then we come to an argument about whether or not it is worth continuing to develop something which is now developing at a small rate. But is this not what is happening with this over-focus on intervals in most coaching situations? Bleeding out fractions of percentages?

This brings up the field of knowledge of running skill, something which seems conspiciously absent from this entire forum called letsrun. Something which seems to be wrapped up inside this term sports scientists have fed into our sport, running economy. This is not only a useless term it is a negative one. Not only does it not describe one thing about how to improve running skill, it actually disuades people from even thinking in that direction. But then again sports science has given us this 'gift' in all events not just distance running.

The reason i bring that up apart from the chance to belabour that point, is that technical development is in fact infinite. it is a fact that nobody will ever reach perfection, for perfection is not something that is real. It is an ideal not any part of reality.

And the same applies to mitochondrial and capillaric density. Sure the development may slow, but it will never stop if training keeps pushing in that direction.

And the fact world records are broken in fractions of seconds surely means that elite and aspiring athletes should look to gain their 'fractions of improvement' from as many areas as they can.

Aerobic capacity, mitochondrial density, VO2max, size of the heart 'muscle'- all continue to improve in the fractions the elite end of this sport deal in.

What say you?

Hey Dawg wrote:

Do you have some kind of personal problem with the guy?

no i'm just warning against danger

I don't understand how is possible to be so dishonest to hide the truth for supporting a theory. Gypsy, you are a real liar, or one of the most stupid person in Letsrun.

At first, I never asked anybody to cancel your posts, for one very simple reason : I don't care if a cheater posts something not true, that is very easy to demolish using real facts.

Secondly, I give you some other example (but are not all, of course) of my athletes that I destroyed, so EVERYBODY CAN SEE HOW DISHONEST YOU ARE.

Sorry if I cant give you example of many athletes I currently coach (such as Silas Kiplagat, Caleb Ndiku, Collins Cheboi in 1500m, Leonard Kosencha in 800, the most part of new Marathon runners, the Ethiopian with whom I work from one year only), because are not yet 3 years I coach them... May be after 3 years you can have reason in the future. Meanwhile, I show because you are dishonest looking at the past (if you want, I can put some other athlete, for example Edwin Soi or Lydia Cheromei, able to last more than 20 years !).

DORCUS INZIKURU (1982)

1999 : 9’15”66 (3000) / 16’05”5 (5000)

2000 : 16’21”32 winning WJCh ahead Defar

2002 : 8’48”81 / 15’18”01 (Bronze Commonwealth Games)

2003 : 2’03”00 (800) / 4’36”05 (Mile) / 8’46”29 (3000) / 9’39”51 (steeple)

2004 : 15’05”30 (5000) / 9’29”30 (steeple, African Record)

2005 : 9’15”04 (World Champion, 8 seasonal victories in steeple, never defeated)

2006 : 9’19”51 (winning Commonwealth Games)

2007-2009 : Stop for motherhood.

2010 : 9’53”02

2011 : 9’54”50

SYLVIA KIBET (1984)

Started with me in Winter 2005/06 after motherhood.

2006 : 4’11”50 (1500) / 8’40”09 (3000) / 15’02”54 (5000) / 31’39”34 (10000) / 1:11’37” (HM)

2007 : 8’43”09 (3000) / 14’57”37 (5000) / 31’44” (10k)

2008 : 4’07”46 indoor / 8’41”82 indoor / 15’00”03 (5000) / 31’50” (10k) – 4th WICh / 4th OG (5000)

2009 : 4’08”57 / 8’43”93 / 14’37”77 / 30’47”20 / 1:09’51” - 2nd WCh (5000)

2010 : 4’05”33 indoor / 8’37”48 / 14’31”91 - 4th WICh (3000)

2011 : 14’35”43 - 2nd WCh (5000)

We always looked for winning medals in top Championships, peaking for that period, without being interested in improving her PB.

FLORENCE KIPLAGAT (1987)

2006 : 15’32”54 (5000) - 2nd in WJCh (5000)

2007 : 4’09”0 (1500) / 14’40”74 (5000) / 31’06”20 (10000)

2008 : Motherhood

2009 : 14’40”14 (5000) / 30’11”53 (10000, Kenyan Record) - World Cross Country Champion

2010 : 4’11”2 / 8’40”72 / 14’52”64 / 1:07:40 (HM) - World HM Champion

2011 : 1:08:02 (HM) – 2:19:44 (Marathon)

2012 : 1:06:38 (HM)

STEPHEN CHERONO (Saaeed SHAHEEN) (1982)

1999 : 3’41”08 (1500) / 7’48”60 (3000) / 5’31”89 (2000 st), World Youth Champion

2000 : 8’16”27 (steeple)

2001 : 3’35”47 (1500) / 7’58”66 (steeple) World Junior Record

2002 : 3’35”79 / 13’11”55 (5000) / 7’58”10 (steeple)

2003 : 3’35”15 / 12’48”81 (5000) / 7’57”38 (steeple) World Champion

2004 : 7’34”67 (3000) / 13’14”65 / 7’53”63 (steeple) World Record

2005 : 7’55”51 (steeple) World Champion

2006 : 3’33”51 / 12’51”98 / 7’56”32 (Winners World Cup in 3000st / 5000)

2007-2008 : Surgery in his left knee

2009 : 7’32”46 (3000)

2010 : 7’43”44 indoor / 13’00”31 (5000) / 8’09”63 (steeple)

He won undefeated from 16.08.2002 till 17.09.2006 in steeple (27 following victories)

MOSES MOSOP (1985)

2002 : 28’40”60 (10000)

2003 : 7’45”70 (3000) / 13’11”75 (5000) / 27’13”66 (10000)

2004 : 7’41”78 / 13’09”68 / 27’30”66 - Selected in 10000m for OG

2005 : 7’42”96 / 13’06”83 / 27’08”96 (bronze medal in WCh with his PB)

2006 : 7’36”88 / 12’54”46 / 27’17”00

2007 : 7’45”83 / 13’07”89 / 26’49”55 (silver medal in WCCCh)

2008 : 28’29” (10k road). Stop track for tendon problems

2009 : Only Cross Country season (winner Kenyan Trials)

2010 : 59’20” (HM)

2011 : 1:12’25”4 (25000m) WR / 1:26’47”4 (30000m) WR / 2:03:06 (Mar) – Winner Chicago

PAUL KOSGEI (1978)

1995 : 8’36”00 (steeple)

1997 : 8’07”69 (steeple) WJR / 28’08” (10k) / 1:05’35” (HM) - 3rd WJCCCh

1998 : 8’07”86 (steeple) / 7’43”68 (3000) / 28’37” (10k) - 3rd WCCCh (short distance)

1999 : 8’07”13 (steeple) - 2nd WCCCh (short distance)

2000 : 7’39”15 (3000) / 13’05”44 (5000) / 27’38”22 (10000) – 3rd WCCCh (short)

2001 : 13’06”29 (5000) / 27’51”87 A (10000)

2002 : 27’44”14 A (10000, WR in altitude) / 27’34” (10k) / 59’58” (HM) – World HM Champion

2003 : 27’21”56 (10000)

2004 : 28’05” (10k) / 1:12’45” (25k) WR

2005 : 1:04’38” (HM) (Malaria, out the most part of the season)

2006 : 27’48” (10k) / 59’07” (HM)

2007 : 28’02” (10k) / 1:01’26” (HM) / 2:09’31” (Mar)

2008 : 59’37” (HM) / 2:09’15” (Mar)

2009 : 1:00’53” (HM) / 2:13’42” (Mar)

2010 : 2:09’00” (Mar)

MARK BETT (1976)

1995 : 13’32”09 (5000)

1996 : 7’52”79 (3000)

1997 : 7’48”50 (3000) / 13’15”97 (5000) / 27’41”14 (10000)

1998 : 7’44”20 / 13’22”36 / 27’18”66

1999 : 8’02”71 / 13’14”27 / 27’38”64

2000 : 7’46”40 / 12’55”63 / 28’15”98

2001 : 7’36”66 / 12’58”72 / 27’42”68

2002 : 7’38”34 / 13’00”38 / 27’50”29 indoor (World Indoor Best)

2003 : 7’53”96 / 13’16”42

2004 : 7’38”86 indoor / 13’07”80 / 27’02”00

2005 : 7’48”36 indoor / 13’43”52 / 26’52”93

2006 : 7’40”06 / 13’07”94

2007 : 7’42”88 / 13’17”45

2008 : 27’53” (10k)

2011 : 1:02’21” (HM)

Mark had a leg shorter than the other of more than 3cm. For that reason, never was able to have continuity in his training longer than 2 months. He competed very few times every year, since we had to use specific training for short periods only in order to avoid problems in his back.

Another example, not Kenyan but not Italian, is with the Maroccan Rakya Maraoui (she became the wife of a French guy, and her full name was

RAKYA MARAOUI-QUETIER (1967)

She arrived in Italy when 19, and in 1986 ran 10000m in 37’33”. After losing several kg, she became an athlete of medium international level, running her PB in Marathon (1995) with 2:28’17” in Berlin.

In 1996 she ran her PB in HM (1:09’29”), in 2000 she won French Championships on track in 10000m in Salisbourg (31’56”1), in 2003 was still able to run for France in WCh (Marathon) with 2:31’23”, and in 2008 (41 years…) she competed for France in European Cross Country Championships.

It's almost sad that you were able to provoke Renato to come on here like that and destroy you... but it is also pretty humorous how bad you look now. I know that you will probably never realize (or admit) that you are wrong, because you are not a rational person, but it is clear to any third party following this debate that your arguments have no relation to reality.

I second this. He will definitely not realize or admit it. He is not a troll, just mentally ill. We should better not respond to him anymore.