Ryan Hall out of Mammoth

If you read his interview with Joe Battaglia, he indicates it wasn't just this one training cycle. He said that before the trials and before Beijing he had problems with getting too fit too early and having to take days off and "almost get unfit" to be able to progress through the remainder of his training. It seems like it wasn't a one-time thing, but was becoming a pattern.

Ryan Hall needs to change the way he trains if he wants to run 2:05.

Here is what pretty much all 2:05 guys have in common:

1) They have a coach who knows how to coach a 2:05 marathoner

I am starting to believe that running 2:05 is fundamentally different than running 2:08 or 2:10. Just looking at how radically different Renato Canova and Claudio Berardelli's training programs are from what the "standard" 2:10 training is, it seems like the American coaches haven't caught on yet. Hudson/Mahon/Hansons is basically 140 mile weeks, long tempos at marathon pace, and long threshold work (mile/2mile/3mile repeats). Add in a basic taper, and that's it. The Kenyan (and Italian, let's not forget!) training is SO much more complex.

2) They train with others

Ryan Hall's "top dog syndrome" is killing him. The best in the world train with a group, and it keeps your ego in check. Hall is a great guy, but he HAS to be "top dog," and as soon as he's in a race and isn't winning, he falls apart. Training with a group gets rid of that attitude fast. Hall has an almost-diva-like attitude, which ANY college coach would chew him out for in a minute if he was a hotshot freshman at a top NCAA team, but because he's Ryan Hall, everyone lets it fly. It's a destructive attitude, ultimately, for the athlete.

3) They do faster stuff

Again, this gets back to the boilerplate American template for a 2:10 (and a short marathon career): mileage, long tempos, and threshold. How on earth is running fast supposed to be relaxed when you hardly ever go more than 10 or 20 seconds faster than marathon pace? Back to the track! Or at least the cross country team. But maybe I'm letting my World Cross Dream Team fantasy take over here.

4) They race more often.

Hall needs to get his butt out the door and show up to some big road races, get his butt kicked, and be okay with it. It'll allow him to see some progress during the seasons, and not get caught up in this-workout-vs-last-year's-workout nonsense

Simone wrote:

whonamestheirkidgerman? wrote:

His own words:

http://blog.thestepsfoundation.org/

I will be using some different sources to shape my training. Over the past 14 years of running I have developed a keen body awareness, which I will use on a daily basis, as well as advice from various experts, and prayer to ultimately shape my training. I believe that operating in this manner will allow me to run with a new level of faith and excitement.

Even more reason he will end up in Flagstaff.

1.There is absolutely nothing complex about Wanjiru´s training (it has been posted on LR).

2. In the typical "Italian training school" the runners rarely run faster than 10% faster than MP during the last months before the marathon (Bordin´s training leading up to the 1988 Oly´s has been posted on LR).

3. Geb trains alone.

Over the past 14 years of running I have developed a keen body awareness, which I will use on a daily basis, as well as advice from various experts, and prayer to ultimately shape my training.

I hope "developed a keen body awareness" morphs into the running equivalent of "taking my talents to South Beach."

I agree in large part with the previous poster.

Hall came out of college/HS with a track background. He was a miler/5K guy. He joined Mahon who introduced the LT/hard long run/overdistance training component...and it worked great while he still had his background speed. But to many years of overdistance training has taken its toll on his speed. I bet he couldn't touch is college 5K PR right now. When he ran his AR half, he was a 13:10 calliber runner. Stick him on a track now and I bet he struggles to break 13:40. That the difference beween 2:06 and where he's at now. It disturbs me to see him talking about a spring marathon because that implies a return to the same training philosophy.

I think Ritz got stuck in the same rut...joining Salazar reintroduced the speed component and I bet his marathon will benefit if he can stay healthy. Salazar used to say that he knew he was ready for a good marathon when he ran a fast 10K.

gfdgfs wrote:

Here is what pretty much all 2:05 guys have in common:

1) They have a coach who knows how to coach a 2:05 marathoner

Not a sensible statement...by your logic Mahon "knows" how to coach a 2:06.1x marathoner.

Khannouchi coached himself to 2:05. Hall has a support team to do this. He has a lot more talent than Culpepper. For those who don't know, Culpepper was also self-coached and equaled Salazar's marathon debut of 2:09.4x.

It would actually be in Hall's interest to contact Culpepper and get some advice. While Alan did win the US Olytrials and have some success, he never improved upon his maiden marathon time. Maybe he can help Hall avoid some pitfalls.

Maybe Sara Hall figured training for much shorter events than Ryan at altitude wasn't helping her track career. With Salazar she can live high and train low. Low altitude training may also help Ryan's speed.

Ryan Hall, is a f***ing duster, he couldn't survive a day livin on the streets of compton, wit me and my niggas around, hes slow as f***

gfdgfs wrote:

Ryan Hall needs to change the way he trains if he wants to run 2:05.

Here is what pretty much all 2:05 guys have in common:

1) They have a coach who knows how to coach a 2:05 marathoner

2) They train with others

3) They do faster stuff

4) They race more often.

I agree with you!

1) A 2:05 is quite different. I will say, though, that the information from the 2:05 coaches is becoming available and you can be sure the American coaches are paying attention. We just have far fewer athletes in America to put through elite marathon training, though, so it's harder to show results. So long as we can get some kids from childhood through college with a serious interest in marathoning, I think our coaches will have an opportunity to get some 2:05 runners (but not before the head-of-the-pack overseas coaches are routinely coaching 2:03s).

2) They do train with others in Africa. I'd add the caveat, though, that it's not necessarily training with others that's making them faster, but the simple fact that they have enough guys training that the pressure doesn't all rest on the shoulders of two guys (i.e. Hall and Ritz in America). Having more people increases the odds of producing more results. That aside, Hall would learn how to run in a pack better if he did it in practice. He should humble himself enough to call up Ritz and just ask if he can draft him for one of his hard runs.

3) The other 2:05 runners are definitely doing a lot of fast stuff, but it sounds like Ryan tried to do some of that this last time, as he said he did 5k/10k training before ramping up his tempo duration. Where he may not have done so well, though, was connecting the two so as to make them relevant. Didn't Renato talk about doing something like 5x5k as a workout? That's a better way to connect the two than just ramping up tempo duration. Maybe Hall tried to mimic the concept of the other coaches, but without the expertise to execute it correctly.

4) Hall does need to get his butt kicked. Winning the trials may have been the worst thing to ever happen to him. He's been able to act like he's the best in the USA and prides himself on being a big fish in a small pond. It's admirable to target the American Record, but if you lived in Ethiopia, then targeting your national record would mean quite a different thing. He seems to compare himself to standards that aren't even ideal. Ryan, you're awesome. May as well shoot for 2:03 and land at 2:04 than shoot for 2:05 and land at 2:06.

gfdgfs wrote:

The Kenyan (and Italian, let's not forget!) training is SO much more complex.

This is not strictly true. Renato's athlete do train in a very complicated way but the vast vast majority of the Kenyan's train in a very simple way. Renato is a great coach and SOME of his runners run well, but he coaches a very very small percentage of the top Kenyans and many of them are having great success with very simple training. On the whole the Kenyan training system is incredibly simple not at all complex

Canova just had like 4 guys in the top 10 and 2 females in the top 5 at the world half marathon champs.

The best Kenyans for the most part train under a more "complex" system. Rosa in the past and now Canova and Berardelli for example.

Don't forget about Vin Lananna.

notimesto sell wrote:

Don't forget about Vin Lananna.

Ryan's breakout year at Stanford was the year Lananna left. Lananna and Ryan clearly did not work that well together.

I have been to Iten and Eldoret, Kenya and seen what the guys do. Here is an example of a training week for a 2:06 type marathoner. And there would be hundreds of them, if they were given the chance to race overseas in the right races.

Monday - 6am - 45" - 60" progressive run, starting slow, but going down to around 3.20 - 3.30 in the last 20 minutes or so. Includes a long hill near St Patrick's school (in Iten).

pm - 30"- 40" slow run....slower than the morning.

Tuesday - 6am - 50" slower run (around 4 mins per km)

10am - warmup - 25' mins. Then 20 - 25 times 400m track (dirt track in Iten at 2800m above sea) in the 61 - 63 secs range. Jog 400 recovery. 20' - 25' jog.

4pm - 30" slow jog (around 4.30 per km or slower).

Wednesday - same as Monday

Thursday - 6am - 45" - 60" steady (3.45 - 4.00 per km)

10am 25" then 8 times 1000m on dirt track, starting at around 2.55 per 1000 and finishing around 2.40 - 2.45 per 1000. 25" jog

4pm - 30" slow (4.30 per k)

Friday - 6am - 45" - 60" progressive run, finishing around 3.15 per km.

pm - 45" run, steady, around 4" per km

Saturday - 30 - 35 km time trial over 5km course, running each 5k section faster. Starting with first in 20" and getting down to around 16.30 for the last few 5km loops.

Sunday - rest, or walk to town. On this day, you can see some of these guys in Iten, at the cafe, eating sausages and chips (fries) and drinking tea.

In addition - Gym work 2-3 times a week at the Lornah Kiplagat camp. Circuits with mostly low weights. In and out in 40" - 50"

Ghost in Saudi, wwww.kfupm.edu.sa

I understand that Hall did some faster training before starting the marathon specific buildup this cycle, but just doing 5k/10k specific training is different than actually getting back to the track and RACING some 5k and 10ks. I really would have liked of seen Hall not have committed to a fall marathon after Boston and just went back to the track. Having long build ups to two marathons every year, year after year is mentally draining, especially after having consecutive sub-par races (for him) after his 2:06 at London in '08.

Wallet Inspector wrote:

[quote]gfdgfs wrote:

Khannouchi coached himself to 2:05.

Wrong. Sandra Khannouchi, his wife and agent, coached him to a 2:05. No other American has run that fast -- which means, obviously, that no one else has coached an American to that time. Maybe Hall should look her up.

There's probably a few different ways to run a 2:05. I wonder if this column nails it:

http://www.universalsports.com/blogs/blog=blockheadblog/postid=497539.html

Maybe Hall just doesn't have the drive that he used to, and he's seeing running more as a path to fundraising for his charity project and for feeling close to god and all that than he is seeing it as a way to become a great champion.

I was talking to a teammate today about this stuff. I think the answer is, No American marathoner can train the way the East-African 2:05ers do. Take a group of 15 runners, tell them to go out for 1.5 hrs at 5:00 place, then have them do a boatload of striders. Then at 10000ft of altitude. Lastly, dont care if one get injured for the season because you have 14 more runners to work with. Thats the Kenyan way. No group is that big that they can sacrifice runners like that. Best bet would be move to Addis Abbaba and train with Dr. Berta aka. Geb's coach.